How Do They Know?

Yes, I have seen several Calvinists say they "realized" they were saved. This is a strange thing to me. The scriptures say you can know you have eternal life, not that you come to realize it.

I would ask these Calvinists how they can be sure of their salvation? I mean, if you don't have something firm to base it on, how can you be sure? Wouldn't it be possible a man could deceive his own self?

Gal 6:3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

I am not questioning anyone's salvation, I am just asking if you do not have some firm foundation for believing you are saved, then how do you know?

And this is the problem with making faith a mystical, magical force that only God can give you. How in the world does a man know God has given him this supernatural power?

 

Your post totally warps and misrepresents the doctrines of sovereignty and grace. God does not sit up in heaven on His throne with His regeneration wand zapping different people everyday.

Yes, it is possible for a man to deceive himself, either side, and your super abilites of free will in a fallen state give you no leg up in this department. So tell all of us, how does this ability to choose the Lord tell you that you have eternal life? What told you, since you like to make fun of people who use the word realize? Was it an email from above, or maybe your aura lit up a bright white when the Lord jumped for joy that you chose Him?

There seems to be another super human ability you have. It seems from your posts you can look into the very soul of another and see whether they are saved or not. Otherwise, how do you know that people who use the word "realized" are deceived. I wish you would teach me that trick.

You harp on "Calvinists" for the fact they have nothing to base their salvation on, yet you fail to tell us what you base yours on. If you had bothered to read the Scriptures, you would know that the Holy Spirit bears witness to our spirit that we are saved, regardless of which side you take on this issue.

It seems odd to me that you have the free will to choose salvation, but once attained, you have no free will to rid yourself of it. That seems kind of inconsistant to me.

The foundation of my salvation is the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross, by faith and grace. The Lord chose me, I did not choose Him, nor did I have the ability to do such. It seems to me yours is based on a belief in your free will in a fallen state.

Your implication that there is decades of time between regeneration and realization is totally false and has no basis.

 

No, I do not see your point. Your statement "it doesn't make sense" says to me it is probably true, as most of what God does makes no sense to many.

Why would faith be needed to believe in false religions? What a silly statement. In a fallen state, that is the same as believing that Paris is in France. It takes no faith from the Lord to believe anything aside from the Gospel and Scripture.

Is God that cruel you ask? Again, another ridiculous question. Everyone of us deserves thw wrath of God for our sinful state. If He chose just one person to save, that would have been more than anyone deserved. You are owed nothing. You have no idea if the bulk of humanity will be saved or not, unless like the poster above, you can see into another's soul.

 

On this one point brother there is basis, though maybe not related toward those Cals on the BB and not so much a 'realization' but believing at a later time. So yes, there are some in the Reformed view who do believe a person can be regenerate for days or even years, though admittedly this is not a current mainstream view

 

Personally, I do not believe that, although some no doubt do. I believe the Holy Spirit would witness to your spirit in rather short order. Hope you and your family had a wonderful Christmas.

 

That's what Winman frequently does with views he's opposed to.

 

Yes Allan, you're correct on both points. Most Old Baptists of the Gillite persuasion make a definite distinction between the effectual call and the gospel call.

 

I will be glad to explain my super-abilities (that was sarcasm).

I know I am saved because the scriptures say so. It is not because I got some feeling, or came to some realization.

The scriptures say if a man believes on Jesus Christ he will be saved. To believe on Jesus Christ you must understand what "believe on" means. It means to depend upon, trust, rely upon, or cast yourself upon Jesus and depend upon him only to save you. It is a committment. I have explained this in many posts. I have written several posts telling how a person can know from scriptures if they are saved.

The scriptures provide many verses that explain this in different ways so as to make it clear that every person can understand. For brevity I will just show two.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The scriptures say whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. That is very easy to understand, a child can understand that. This means if a man will accept the truth of the scriptures that he is a sinner worthy of death, and believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died for his sins and rose from the dead, and call upon Jesus for forgiveness, which is an act of dependence and trust, he will be saved.

Now, I know for a fact that as an eleven year old boy I understood all this. And I got down on my knees and sincerely prayed and asked Jesus to save me. I don't have to wonder about this, I don't have to come to some realization, I know I did this. And I meant it with all my heart. So, I know by the word of God I am saved. God does not lie.

Now, on the other hand, I can see where this would not be assuring to a Calvinist, because they do not believe "whosoever" means "whosoever". They believe whosoever only means an elect few.

So, how can a Calvinist have assurance? They don't believe God means whosoever when he said whosoever. That is your problem, not mine.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

This is a salvation verse, although I have seen many Calvinists say it is not. Again, your problem, not mine. Here Jesus says he is knocking on your door. He is calling to you. And if you open the door he will come in. This is speaking of a man's free will. If a man of his own free will invites Jesus into his heart, Jesus will come in and he will be saved.

And again, I know I did that. I don't have to wonder or come to a realization that I invited Jesus into my heart and asked him to save me. I know for a fact that I did that. And so I know by the solemn promise that Jesus gave in his word that I am saved and he lives in my heart.

Again, this is a problem for Calvinists. This verse if offensive to them for several reasons. First, they do not believe an unsaved man has a free will. They do not believe an unsaved man can decide for and choose Christ. And even if they could, Calvinists think faith is a work. They cannot allow that a man do anything or participate in his salvation. They can't open the door because they believe that robs God's sovereignty even though Jesus himself said you personally have to open the door. He won't break it down or enter without your permission.

And because Calvinists will not accept these easily understood verses that explain what faith is and how a person can be saved, they don't know they are saved. I will show an example.

Here is how one Calvinist explained his conversion

Now, I am not saying this person is not saved, I sincerely hope they are. But what is the basis stated here for assurance? A feeling or sensation. That is what this person is saying told them they were saved. They felt a sensation of total love, joy, and peace.

Now all that is wonderful, but I have learned long ago not to trust feelings. Feelings come and go. Feelings aren't the truth. If your teenager is late getting home with the car, you get all afraid worrying they were in an accident. You can get all worked up in a frenzy worrying. But whether you are afraid or not has nothing to do with the truth. Ten minutes later they walk in and you scream at them "Why are you late! You had me terrified, I thought you got killed in an accident!"

No, feelings are not a good basis to know you are saved. Today, if you feel good you believe yourself saved. Tomorrow if you feel bad you worry you are lost.

But when you trust the word of God and take them literally as they were meant to be understood, then you can know for a fact you are saved.

 

Did you read my last post? You are the one bringing up the delayed point of realization, not me or anyone else. If you read my post above, I gave you the exact basis of my salvation and how I know that I am saved. Feelings have not been brought up in any post.

Since you did not read the posts, I will say it again. I do not believe there would be a delay in the Holy Spirit giving witness to you that you are saved. Feelings have nothing to do with it. Feelings are words like happy, sad, mad, glad, giddy, angry, afraid, panic, etc, they come and go. The fruits of the spirit, at a much deeper level, are joy, peace, goodness, patience, faith, hope, etc. are always there, at the same time feelings come and go. Yes, the fruits of the Spirit are one of the things that bare witness. Joy and happy are not the same. Different levels, differerent meanings.

Aside for all this, you constantly ignore that the Lord said without a doubt, that He chose you. I have news for you. Whosoever is not going to respond to the Gospel call without having been chosen by the Lord to respond.

Why don't you forget terms like "feelings," "realization," and "Calvinism" and just go by Scripture?

By the way, I am still waiting for you or your other superman freewiller to explain how you freely chose salvation from the Lord, then, once acquired, do not have the free will to get rid of it.

 

Now, why in the world would anybody who truly believes the scriptures turn from belief in Jesus? If you truly and sincerely believe that hell awaits all sinners who do not trust on Christ, why would a person want to turn from that trust? I have met just one man who said he believed the Bible when he was young, but did not believe it now. That is what he said, but from the conversation I had with this man, I doubted he ever believed the scriptures at all.

Once you are born again you cannot become unborn. You are a new creature.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

No kidding, but your belief changes rules from free-will to no free-will. Amazing how you do that.

 

All I know is that the scriptures say we are born again, we are a new creature. We have the mind of Christ, I can't imagine a man with the mind of Christ choosing to turn from trust in Christ. It may be possible, but I can't see it.

As I said, I met a man once when going home to home once inviting people to our church and telling them the gospel. We met this fellow, he was rather rough looking and talking. He said something like, "Aw, I used to believe that junk when I was a kid, but I don't believe that stuff now"

This is the one and only person I have ever met who said he once believed but did not now. You would have had to been there, but from the man's behavior I did not get the impression that he truly ever believed. But he said he did, and how can I argue with that?

 

No, Winman didn't change anything. It is your perception that is at fault. You assume that since on believes, as the Scripture teaches, that a man has a freewill and can use that freewill to either accept or reject Christ, it also means that once born again, they can later become not born again. Faulty logic on your part, but don't feel bad, Calvinists do it all the time.

If a person choses to have a baby, once that baby is born, they can do nothing to un-born it. Regardless of how they treat that child, it is still a person that was born. The only way to not have the child is to not have it in the first place. You cannot undo this decision once it is made.

Likewise, once a person chooses to believe and accept Christ as their Saviour, they are born from above. This birth cannot be done away with later.

 

Yes, exactly. Just like you can't be un-born after you leave your mother's womb, it stands to reason that you can't be un-born-again.

 

Exactly. Thank you Robert, I know we do not agree on everything, but we agree on this perfectly.

1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

When you receive and believe the word of God, you are receiving the Holy Spirit, for Jesus's words are both spirit and life. The scriptures teach that the Holy Spirit lives forever, so He is not going to die. But it also teaches that the Holy Spirit abides with you forever. He is never going to leave or foresake you, even when we fall in sin which we often do.

 

Sorry but you are more theologically challenged than your buddy you are trying to defend. First, I never said I was a Calvinist, you did. There is your first mistake. Your second mistake is shifting your free will position to when it suits your needs. Your third mistake is your definition of my perception. My perception is that you think very highly of yourself to believe you can choose God.

 

That is the one correct thing you have said. The man never believed in the first place.

 

Well, he gave the impression that he never truly believed, we spoke to the man for over half an hour and he said many things that led me to believe he did not understand the scriptures.

But that said, he said he believed when he was a kid, and I must take him at his word. I do not know a man's heart.

 

John provides the explanation in I John 3:19

Profession obviously does not always mean possession.

 

Here is the original quote, and where the "confusion" came from.

OR said: "Regeneration or the new birth is not the same as conversion."

Biwald replied:
EXACTLY! Regeneration is an act of the Holy Spirit. Conversion is the human realization that one is regenerate.
Regeneration qualifies one for Heaven. Conversion qualifies one for the Church on Earth.

Biwald was actually the one who said "Conversion is the human realization that one is regenerate," in agreement with what OR said.

But if that be true (as has been noted), conversion can be "realized" many years after regeneration takes place. There is no way to know how the regeneration has taken place except possibly by a feeling. If the faith is God-given and comes after regeneration what is regeneration, but simply an emotion if even that, and how does on know he is regenerated? At that time he doesn't even have faith. As Webdog pointed out, according to the Calvinist he is as a dead corpse with no life and can't respond to anything, and thus would not know that he is regenerated.

Biblically regeneration takes place at the same time conversion/salvation does when one puts their faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and is born again.
He hears the Word of God (1Pet.1:23), and is born again by the Word of God, and by His Spirit (John 3:5), and he is quite aware of it.