Featured How human was Jesus/how much like Jesus are we

No I am not.

Oh, they give it lip service, but then if you ask them if God sends little children to hell they will almost all say no. So they really do not believe children are wicked little sinners deserving of hell.

I am consistent, I do not believe children are born sinners or dead in sin. Therefore I believe all children who die go to heaven. That is consistent.

What is ungodly about stating an opinion? I simply estimate that a very large percentage of Christians will say that God does not send children who die to hell. How can a statement like this be ungodly?

Please explain how such a statement is ungodly, this is going to be good.

 

I didn't say Calvinists deny depravity, I said Calvinsts often deny that children deserve to go to hell. I showed you what John Calvin himself said of Jonah 4:11;

Does John Calvin say these 120,000 children deserved destruction?

Yes or no?

 

I don't need to refute you. You imply that Deu 1:39 and Jon 4:11 is not speaking about very little children who do not understand between good and evil, and I have showed you multiple commentaries that all agree with my interpretation.

That you can find commentators that say otherwise proves nothing.

I may not have refuted you, but you have not refuted me either.

As far as quoting Calvinists or any commentators, you know very well that is not my normal style. I usually post nothing but scripture to support my arguments, and I did so here at first. But because you accuse me of being mistaken, I showed from many commentaries that my interpretation is absolutely orthodox. And that is in fact so.

It is your interpretation that is off the wall and not orthodox.

 

Your problem is that Paul also said Jacob and Esau had done no evil before they were born which absolutely refutes your view.

If Jacob and Esau sinned with Adam, then they indeed did evil before they were born.

Busted.

 

IMO, Your continual dishonest and misrepresentation should get you kicked off the board. Look! I believe in OS, and I don't believe little children will go to hell. I have explained that to you a half a dozen times. You continue your slanderous misrepresentation of me.

Consistently misrepresenting Calvinists.

A statement is ungodly when it is not true and slanders others. That is what you have done. You have made false statements. I have shown you how you have accomplished that. And now you lie about it??

Please explain how such a statement is ungodly, this is going to be good.[/QUOTE]

 

And I would say you are inconsistent with yourself. If children are truly born as wicked sinners (which you believe), then they should justly go to hell. It is that simple. Why should children be excluded from the just punishment of God for being sinners?

I have not misrepresented Calvinists at all. Many Calvinists believe babies who die go to hell. Here is a statement from a Reformed site.

http://reformedanswers.org/answer.asp/file/40388

I have a feeling the reason you want to ban me is because I have revealed your inconsistency and hypocrisy. Oh well, if the shoe fits.

 

1. Because God is merciful.
2. Because we have a scriptural precedent in that David said concerning the death of his own infant: "he shall not come to me, but I shall go to him."
3. Because of the faith of Abraham who said: "Shall not the God of all the earth do right."
4. Because in the realm of the sovereignty of God, the logic of Winman rarely makes sense.

I am not even going to go there. I know what they believe by my interaction with them from this board. Ask them. Discuss it with them. Haven't you been here long enough to know what they believe? I know you have, so why the deliberate misrepresentation?

NO. I have told you plainly--you continue to misrepresent me, what I say and others. And you do it over and over again.
You must put your logic above God's Word.
I tell you plainly that I believe in the depravity of man, Original Sin, and that infants Do NOT go to hell. Then you accuse me of believing they do. Such continual slanderous false accusations cannot be tolerated. It is not tolerated with others; why should it be tolerated with you?

 

I believe God is just and merciful as you do. But I also believe God must punish sinners who do not trust in Jesus Christ. If babies are born dead in sin and die before they can trust Jesus, then they must go to hell. There is no other way to be saved known to man.

I do not believe babies are born sinners or dead in sin. They are not lost.

You know as well as I do that many Calvinists believe "non-elect" babies go to hell. Are you going to pretend you didn't already know this? You also know that many Catholics believe if a baby dies before they are baptized to wash away their sin they go to hell. Will you pretend you do not know this? So I have not misrepresented Calvinists or Catholics.

I am simply saying your position is inconsistent. If babies are wicked sinners who die without trusting Christ, then they should go to hell. To believe otherwise is inconsistent with Christianity.

I do not believe babies are sinners, Paul said Jacob and Esau had done no evil before they were born. How can they be sinners if they have done no evil?

You seem to believe that being a sinner is something a person IS. I believe being a sinner is a legal description of someone who has actually sinned, it is a judgment, like being a "felon".

Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

You seem to believe being a sinner is something you ARE, like being a dog that must bark. I believe being a sinner is a legal judgment like a "felon" or a "convicted bank robber". You can only be a bank robber if you actually rob a bank, you cannot be born a bank robber.

I believe this is where folks go wrong, they do not understand that being a "sinner" is a legal term that describes someone who has actually sinned. Therefore, no baby can be a sinner.

 

busted winman.......

 

Wow, what a convincing argument. You really put your brain into this argument Icon! :laugh:

 

I am just a neutral observerDHKdid all the heavy lifting

 

Right, and I'm neutral as well.

 

This is a Baptist Board not a Catholic board. You do err.
Even among the Baptists you are falsely accuse them. Most of them do not believe as you say. You need to stop the false accusations simply because a few of the Calvinists don't believe the way the majority do. The majority of them believe infants go to heaven. Set up a poll and see.

Again: Winman's logic vs. God's mercy and sovereignty.
Do you know who wins that argument Winman?

I know. You stand outside 2,000 years of Christian orthodoxy and at least 6,000 years of Biblical history. You are quite alone in your stand. Remember, I am not the Calvinist here.

We are born sinners. We have a nature that is inherited from Adam.
We sin because we want to sin.
We sin because we are prone to sin, that is, we have a nature that is depraved given to us at birth. There is no person alive that can live a sinless life. You have no answer for that do you?

Some are born with fetal-alcohol-syndrome.
But all are born with depraved-nature syndrome. And it can never be cured until they get to heaven.

It is not a legal term. Neither is drunkard, boozer, alcoholic, etc. None of those are legal terms. They are descriptive, just as sinner is descriptive. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
There is not a just man on earth who does good and sins not.
A sinner is one who sins. That is true. But in God's sight all are born sinners. You can argue that one with God. Adam sinned.
The result of that sin has affected the entire human race.

 

The OP. How human was Jesus/

Whether it be a man 86 years old or a baby 1 day old the following applies.

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Hebrews 9:27
For since by man came death, 1 Cor 15:21
For as in Adam all die, 1 Cor 15:22

How human was Jesus?

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, Hebrews 2:9

I ask again. Was death for man, once, appointed or was it appointed for man to die once? Behold I show you a mystery.

From Hebrews 2:6,7 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels;

Why was man made a little lower than the angels? What about the baby son of man? When was death appointed for man? Before or after his creation? It wasn't a matter of if thou eat, it was, in the day that thou do eat, "dying thou dost die."

Jesus is only baby born of woman and lived without sin and even he died.

 

I have not erred whatsoever. I showed you from a Reformed site that many Reformed believe some babies go to hell.

When did I say the majority of Calvinists believe babies go to hell? I said the exact opposite, I said if you poll "Christians", that probably 95% or more will say God does not send babies to hell. It is you that is misrepresenting me.

Many Christians have not agreed with Original Sin. They based this on scripture like Eze 18:20 and Ecc 7:29 and many of the same scriptures as I believe refutes Original Sin.

We are not born sinners, you have to sin to be a sinner. We are born flesh that tempts us to sin, but that does not make us evil, Jesus took on "the same" flesh and blood as we have. (Heb 2:14)

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Jesus was made of "the seed of David according to the flesh", so if the sin nature is inherited through the flesh, then Jesus would have had a sin nature. I refuse to believe this, the scriptures say Jesus was "holy".

Yes, but no sin nature is required. Adam and Eve wanted to sin, and they did not have a sin nature.

Oh, I agree the flesh tempts us to sin. And we are born into a world full of temptations. Adam and Eve lived in a perfect world and sinned the first time they were tempted, is it any wonder we who are born into a world with literally thousands of temptations sin? What is remarkable is that Jesus could live 33 years as a man and not sin.

But Jesus had "the same" flesh as us and was tempted in all points as we are. The ability to be tempted did not make him sinful. We only become sinful when we actually sin.

And no rational person would blame a child for being addicted to alcohol or drugs because of his parent. No such child deserves condemnation, but pity and help.

Yes, sinner is a legal term.

Just is a legal term as well, as is righteous.

No, God said Jacob and Esau had done no evil before they were born. He did not say they were sinners as you falsely do.

 

Why don't you just tell us what you believe in plain language we can understand? Half the time I do not have a clue what you are talking about. That is why I tend to ignore most of your posts, and I wouldn't be surprised if others ignore your posts for the same reason.

If you have a point, then make it, and say it in direct simple language folks can understand. Asking people a bunch of vague questions is a very poor way of communicating.

 

DHK

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He has not been able to...not even close:thumbsup:

No...seems like that has not happened either:wavey:

.

yes...he has been doing that.:thumbsup:

No...DHK...you can keep him:laugh:

 

And that Reformed site is supposed to represent all the Calvinists on this board?? Do your own poll and prove your own self wrong.

When you directed us to your Reformed site. Quit talking out of both sides of your mouth. In one statement you say all Calvinists, then in the next statement you change it to say all Christians. Just admit that you are confused.

Absolutely right: J.W., Mormons, SDA, etc. They all call themselves Christians. Do you want me to add to that list? All these sects that stand outside Christian orthodoxy do not believe in the depravity of man. Welcome to their group.

Are you claiming you have "the same flesh" that Jesus has? Are you also divine? That is quite an arrogant claim Winman? Jesus was virgin born. Are you?
Once you study that verse out and find what it is teaching then perhaps it will make things clearer for you. But for now it would be better that you don't take it out of context and make it mean something it doesn't teach.

He was born of a virgin that he would not inherit a sin nature. But you won't believe that either. It is a matter of believe Winman.

Their sin is part of the Fall, which in turn started the process of the second law of thermodynamics. It set in motion the depravity of man, and the depravity of all things in this earth--even animals and the thorns and thistles among the plants.

Jesus is God. He was tempted like we are. He could not sin. That is a subject for another thread.

We are sinners the day we are born. We are conceived that day. Even David said that in Psalm 51:5. But Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit, not by a human.

It was an illustration.
As a child is born with fetal-alcohol syndrome so man is born with sinner-depraved syndrome. He can't help but sin.

Here is some further information on Jonah 4:11 from the NET Bible.

4:11 Should I36 not be even more37 concerned38 about Nineveh, this enormous city?39 There are more than one hundred twenty thousand people in it who do not know right from wrong,40 as well as many animals!”41

Note footnote #40:

It refers, as I pointed out before, those that have no moral discernment. They are so depraved they know not their right hand from their left.

We use the same idiom today.
For example: You're such a fool, you don't know your right hand from your left!
--That is an example, and that is how it is used. The Lord was speaking of the moral depravity of the people. They needed the light that Jonah could give them, and that is why he sent Jonah, as a missionary to them.

 

I simply showed that some Reformed/Calvinists believe that God sends babies who die to hell. That is absolutely true, and that site proved that.

And I have started a poll, but so far no Cal/DoG/Ref has responded.

I will show you my original quote;

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2101156&postcount=161

Did I say all Calvinists believe God sends babies to hell here? NO! I said probably 95% or more among "Christians" would adamantly say NO. I said only the "most extreme" hyper-Calvinists or perhaps Catholics "might" say yes.

So who is lying here? Who is misrepresenting what another said? YOU!

No, I meant traditional Christians like Baptists, including Reformed Baptists and all mainline Protestant denominations like Methodists or Lutherans for example.

I am claiming that Jesus had "the same" flesh and blood you and I were both born with, and I provided scripture that says exactly that.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

You can read, does this verse say Jesus took part of "the same" flesh and blood as us?

Jesus may have been born of a virgin, but he was still "made of the seed of David according to the flesh".

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

It is you that holds to medieval superstition that sin is passed through the flesh. You are stuck in the fourth century. This is Gnostic belief which the scriptures warn about. The scriptures say anybody who denies Jesus came in the flesh is not of God but the spirit of antichrist.

You receive your mother's father's DNA through your mother. Jesus received David's "seed" through Mary. In fact, Jesus had DNA all the way back to Adam through Mary. The Jews knew Jesus was the physical descendant of David, their most common name for him was "Son of David".

Mat 12:23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

Blah, blah, blah again. You seem to believe that the more you say, the more correct you are. Nonsense.

Jesus was born with "the same" flesh as you and I. God in heaven cannot be tempted, but Jesus was flesh and could be tempted in all points as we are, yet he never sinned. He could be touched with the "feeling" of our infirmities (weaknesses).

The scriptures tell us EXACTLY why Jesus was born of a virgin, it was a SIGN. There is not one word in scripture to support your superstitious view that Jesus had to be born of a virgin to escape a sin nature.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

 

Post 199 is an open denial of the Christian faith and of the Christian Jesus