Featured Keeping the Passover in order to be saved

Where have you ever heard, in your entire life, that Sammy Davis Jr. wasn't a Jew the same as any other Jew? Nowhere, except maybe from a fellow Dispensationalist Christian who knows nothing about Jews. Who told you that there is any way that Sammy wasn't a Jew the same as any Israeli? If Sammy wanted to immigrate to the state of Israel, his citizenship as a Jew in that country was his to claim.

You tell me you believe all those authorities who translated the English Bible, yet you believe no authorities on what a Jew is.

Any authority of biblical Hebrew can tell you that the word "as" doesn't appear in Exodus 12:48. But, if a convert is to be counted AS as native of Israel, what's the difference between him and a native of Israel? If he's AS a native in regards to the promises to Jacob, then what does that do to your theology?

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (sorry, no "AS")

Dispensationalists do not believe the Bible. Period. Your doctrine has played a role in killing the western church (but, yet, the church will prevail over your doctrine).

 

Exodus 19:5. 'Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people......and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.'

1 Peter 2:9. 'But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people.....'

What was conditional to Israel in the Mosaic Covenant is unconditional to the Church in the New Covenant (cf.Jeremiah 31:31-34), not that the Church replaces Israel, but believing Jews and believing Gentiles are included in the Church of Christ.

 

All I had to do was see pics of SD Jr. before & after his acceptance of Judaism to see he remained physically the same.

Your whole thingie is based upon your false "replacement theology" doctrine. After his coming to Jesus, Paul remained a Jew and said so, as I pointed out from Scripture.

God made certain prophecies for Judah and israel, and the REALITY is that he's beginning to fulfill them. That's obvious from the founding of the new Jewish sovereign state. Israel is not a CHRISTIAN nation, but is a nation of RACIAL JEWS, altho it has Christians in it. Its govt. is all ORTHODOX JEWS far as I know, ant it fully intends to build a new temple in Jerusalem and re-institute the old system of animal sacrifices. these facts alone render your "replacement theology' false.

And God said He's gonna re-join Judah and Israel into one nation again. that hasn't happened yet, but it WILL.

But in Jesus' Church, there's no classification by race, nationality, ethnic background, etc. All are equal. But again, God made certain promises & prophecies to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and to Jacob's sons, and He will keep them thru their actual descendants, aside from the Church.

You keep mentioning "dispensationalism". Are you a preterist?

And you've gotten entirely-away from the theme of this thread, which is passover and salvation.

 

Judaism is a religion, not a race. Only you and your fellow Dispensationalists deny that Sammy David Jr. was a Jew, but that's only because you people have made up your own anti-Bible and anti-Jew definition of what a Jew is.

God fulfilled those prophesies 2000 years ago in Christ.

The state of Israel disagrees with you.

You've chosen liars to be your teachers.

 

A Jew is a descendant of either Judah, Benjamin, or Levi, sons of Jacob, grandsons of Abraham. Did Sammy Davis Jr. change his physical appearance when he began practicing Judaism? has anyone's physical appearance changed when he or she became a Christian? Mine certainly didn't. I changed INSIDE, MENTALLY, but I remained a Caucasian American of British descent, 6'2", 240 LB, English-speaker, same wife & children. (But I DID change jobs!)

God chose the Israelis as His "peculiar" people, and chose the Jews from among them to be the people from whom Jesus was manifested as a man, and also to be the carriers and dispensers of His word to the world. The Gospel was sent to the Jews first, then the resta the world.

Again, Scripture never says "a Jew from the tribe of Asher" or similar.

And you mention dispensationalism again. You must be a preterist, which is another false doctrine.

No, He did NOT fulfill the prophecies to Israel and Judah then, to restore them to the Promised Land & make them a great nation. Israel(Judah) only occupies a small fraction of the Promised Land today, so God is still fulfilling His promise, but slowly.

I don't think so. Look at its citizenship requirements.

So, Jesus, His Father, and all the apostles & true prophets are liars? I chooseta be taught by SCRIPTURE, & THE HOLY SPIRIT, as men are full of their own ideas. (No, I don't hear "voices"!)

OTOH, YOUR gurus have taught you the false, man-made doctrine of "replacement theology', and apparently that of preterism as well. Both are phony as a Ford Corvette.

 

You say again and again, a Jew is a descendant of Benjamin but not Dan. Your only defense of that is the Bible doesn't have the phrase "Jew of the tribe of Dan." Could you explain why Benjamin is called a Jew and Dan isn't?

Judaism has nothing to do with physical appearance. Get past your racism.

Read post 62, where another poster attempts to educate you with Bible verses that directly address your claim.

The Jews already had the promised land, Judea, when Jesus was here. Jesus restored Israel, the Church.

You don't believe Jesus and the prophets. You get your theology and "facts" from liars. Where did you get the idea that the Israeli government is "all orthodox Jews"? Why don't you believe the Israeli government's definition of a Jew? Why don't you believe the Bible when it says the state of Israel is not God's people? Why do you keep arguing when you have nothing to argue with?

 

I will make the statement that, the Passover had to be kept, in order for anyone to be saved.

The Christ, the Son, the lamb of God without spot and without blemish had to, through sufferings learn, the obedience and become obedient unto death even the death of the cross, as the Passover of mankind. Matt 16:16, 1 Peter 1:19, Heb 5:8, Phil 2:8, 1 Cor 5:7

Now maybe because of the Passover we should keep the feast's that followed the Passover.

Who knows?

 

Because Benjamin followed Judah in remaining loyal to David's family after Solomon's death.

The "racism" was established by GOD when He chose Abraham's descendants thru Isaac as His "peculiar" people.

those verses don't negate God's promises to LITERAL ISRAEL.

No, they were under Roman rule. And Jesus didn't 'restore" the Church. He established the NEW COVENANT and a new Church with Himself as its Head.

Can you name a member of the Israeli govt. who doesn't practice Judaism?

Again, your "replacement theology" is phony as a Ford Corvette. You call yourself a Baptist when you believe such hooey?

"For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, 'The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will remove ungodliness from Jacob,'” (Rom. 11:25-26).

And you avoid the "preterism' question. You must be one, but are ashamed to admit it.

 

The OT Passover saved none in the spiritual sense. It was only those who believed the promise about the one whose death the Passover was but a type. Christ is the true Passover. Those who say we must keep the Passover are confusing the type with the antitype.

 

So, it's about "loyalty", not race? Get your false doctrine straight!

The Church is literal Israel. You mean racial Israel? God made no promises to racial Israel!

A New Covenant with his covenant people, Israel, the church.

How about President Reuven Rivlin, as Jewish as Obama is Christian. How about the Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, as Jewish as Obama is Christian. You know less than nothing about Israel, because what you think you know is factually wrong.

The majority of Baptists through most of Baptist history didn't believe your anti-Christian doctrine. Your doctrine is not Baptist.

Until the fullness of gentiles have come into Israel, the church.

 

Gentleman, there are those born of the physical loins of Abraham thus Jews as a ethnic race and then there are Gentiles who are proselyties of the jewish RELIGION. Sammy David Jr. was not a jew by birth but only by religous conversion.

The church is not Israel and Israel is not the church. Romans 2 is speaking in context about the difference between the hypocritical lost external jew (Rom. 2:16-20) and the twice born spiritual ethnic Jew, like Paul and many of the members in the churches at Rome.

Romans 11 make it very clear that the nation of Israel that rejected Christ as a whole will be saved as a whole. It is what God rejected that is being "grafted again" back. It is the Israel who is NOW the enemies of the gospel "for your sake" (Gentiles) that is the elect Israel that will be saved in Romans 11:25-28. The Jewish "remnant" was never cut off and the gentle believers were not cut off - It is ethnic Israel that was cut off in the context and will be "grafted back in again."

The two trees in Romans 11 represent the two different ethnic sources from which God calls out his elect - the Jewish ethnic source and the Gentile ethnic source. The jewish source was cut off after the crucifixion of Christ and the Gentile source will be cut off at the return of Christ.

 

There's no difference between the two. Educate yourself with sources wither than Dispensations who work hard on knowing nothing about Jews. Try Jewish sources. Try the Bible with an honest eye. People in the Bible became Jews, just the same as those born in Israel. The Bible doesn't use the word "Jew" to mean a race, only a religion. Paul called himself a Jew (only to other Jews), but Paul continued to practice Judaism (the Temple service, etc.).

In Romans 2, Paul defines "Jews" as those who practice Judaism. Stop reading your non-biblical doctrines into the text. Jews" are "circumcised". Jews "rely on the law". These are characteristics or Judaism, not race or ancestry.

Does not Romans 11 explain that only a remnant of Israelites belong to God, and that by grace, not race? (Also, converts to Judaism count as Israelites, doubling the error of the race argument.)

At the time of Jesus, the faithful practiced Judaism. The faithful Jews who didn't yet know Jesus were enemies of the Gospel because they were wrong in the details, but they were loved by God because of their faith, not because of their ethnicity.
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The two trees in Romans 11 represent the two different ethnic sources from which God calls out his elect - the Jewish ethnic source and the Gentile ethnic source. The jewish source was cut off after the crucifixion of Christ and the Gentile source will be cut off at the return of Christ.[/QUOTE]

Paul explains that both gentiles and Jews are attached to one and the same tree, not two trees. Paul explains that both Jew and gentile are attached to this one tree by faith, not by anything else.

This is Christianity.

 

Look, either you are extremely ignorant of scripture or you are intentionally attempting to confuse modern Judaism with Biblical Judaism. Every Sunday School child knows that from the loins of Abraham came Isaac, then came Jacob and the twelve sons of Jacob and that in Biblical terminology the word "Jew" is used interchangably with the word "Israel" as an ETHNIC natural born seed of Abraham and the pharisees made that boast. Every sunday school child know Rahab the harlot was a gentile born of gentiles and always will be a gentile by natural birth. She merely adopted a religion that originated with God not with Israel. So to claim both are the same is simply ignorance and gross ignorance of the facts.

The absolute proof is that natural born Jews did not become proselytes!! If "jew" equalled the religion than natural born Israelites would have to be proselyted to the religion.

And the Bible does use 'Jew' for the ETHNICITY of Abraham's natural born seed. The term "jew" is used in the New Testament in contrast to ETHNCITY not in contrast to other religions "neither JEW or GREEK".

 

Modern Judaism and biblical Judaism aren't the same religion. The former shouldn't be even be called Judaism, but they call themselves Jews, so what are we to do? Pseudo-Judaism? It's a fraud. It's a counterfeit, a poor counterfeit.

But, a lot of Evangelicals have reverence for Pseudo-Jews. So, they should consult Jewish authorities on what constitutes a Jew: Why they identify themselves as Jews. It begins and ends with religion, even if secular to the mere cultural Judaism. Race is no part of it.

All Jews, by definition, are adherents to Judaism. The Pharisees, by uncontested definition, are adherents to the religion of Judaism. Some Jews in Bible times boasted of being blood seeds of Abraham -- but that is not what qualified them as "Jews". The Pharisees thought their genealogy qualified them as Abraham's heirs -- they were dead wrong.

Who in all the Bible is called a Jew but didn't practice Judaism? Abraham's blood seed Ishmael? The Hebraic Christians (who didn't practice Judaism, which excludes Paul)?

Exodus 12:28 48 And if any proselyte shall come to you to keep the passover to the Lord, thou shalt circumcise every male of him, and then shall he approach to sacrifice it, and he shall be even as the original inhabitant of the land; no uncircumcised person shall eat of it.

Rahab was counted as an Israelite by birth. Pseudo-Jews also count her as a Jew by birth.

A proselyte is a convert.

Duh, of course Jews didn't become proselytes, because you can't convert to the religion that you already are. Your argument works against you.

Ishmael the Jew? Many Evangelicals want endless war against the Muslim Jews (Arabs) of the middle-east.

 

Your dancing around the real facts. You have admitted that there are natural born Israelites and there are those who are not natural born Israelites and they are called Gentiles. When the embrace the religion of Israel they are called proselytes but are NEVER ONCE called Jews in Scripture - NEVER!

Race does have a part to do with it as the term "jew" is consistently used in contast to "greek" or "gentile" and that is NEVER a religious designation but an ethnic racial designation.

Neither is that true. The Sadducees were "Jews" but they were not adherents to the religion given Moses. The Pharisees were "Jews" but their religion was not the religion given to Moses but a religious perversion of it.

Jesus bluntly accused the Pharisees and Sadducees in his day as Jews who did not of embrace the religion of Abraham or Moses.

You realize the difference between being "counted" and literally being born "of blood" line do you not. They are not the same as one is positional or legal and the other is racial. Of course natural born Israelites were raised in the religion given to them by Moses but Israelites made a distinction between "Jews" and Jewish proselytes and the "middle wall of partition" in the temple prove that. Jewish proselytes did not have equal standing with natural born Israelites. The Old Testament identified them by different names such as "stranger" and did not call the "stranger" an "Israelite" or a "Jew" but a "proselyte" demonstrating a racial distinction.

Come on, no human being comes into the world with a set of religious values. You may say you were raised as a Baptist but that does not mean you did not have to come to a personal conversion point. However, Israelites were born Jews as a racial value before they could even learn to read and write and that why the scriptures consistently contrast "Jew" with "Greek" because it does denote racial ethnicity as a natural born child of Abraham. Ishmael cannot be used as one who is born of Abraham but not a Jew because neither the term "Jew" or "Israelite' existed in his day. However, after these terms came into existence they were used to define a racial component in addition to a religious component or else it could not be used for example as follows:

Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Because the true religion of Abraham was the truth about salvation (Acts 10:43) and therefore one can be called a "Jew" outside the true salvation of Abraham or the gospel of salvation believed and preached by all the prophets (Heb. 4:2) and yet be a "Jew" and not have received the religion of Abraham.

 

The point is that true salvation by repentance and faith in the gospel existed from Genesis 3:15 to the cross and those Israelites attempting to be justified by the law were called "Jews" and yet that was not the true religion given to either Abraham or Moses as the law was never designed to justify any sinner. The writer of hebrews says the same gospel preached to us was preached to them but they rejected it and still they were called Jews. Paul argues that true "Jews" that is true natural born children of Abraham raised under the Old Covenant who are TWICE born are the "true" Jews. That would make those called "Jews" who were natural born descendents under the law but embracers of a FALSE religion rather than the true religion of Abraham or Moses not true "Jews" in a religious sense but still called "Jews" in a natural born sense. Hence, "Jew" does not equal mere religion but always equals racial origin.

 

Moreover, the Israel that was "cut off" in Romans 11 is the one that will be "grafted in again." It is the same one that is NOW enemies of the gospel for the sake of the Gentiles that are the beloved of the Father according to his eternal purpose of election and it is that "all Israel" that yet in the future shall be saved AFTER all the gentile elect are called in. The remnant has never been cut off and so it is not the remnant that is grafted in again.

The single tree is God's redemptive sphere of work which was first primarily among ethnic Jews but they have been cut off from the redemptive sphere of present activity and the gentiles have taken their place as the redemptive sphere of God's elective purpose. When God is through with the Gentiles as a people, then they too will be cut off and Israel as a people will be grafted in again.

You may not know who they are but God does know them and as a racial people they still exist on earth according to God's promise and eternal purposes.

 

Esther 8:17 tells us "many of the people of the land became Jews". Many gentiles became "Jews."

"Proselyte" means a convert, it's not a destination. One doesn't convert to a proselyte. One converts to a Jew, and then is called a proselyte. Then, at some point, you stop calling someone a proselyte, and all that is left is "Jew".

They're strangers, foreigners, until they convert. After that, they're Jews. After conversion, gentiles are no longer strangers and aliens, but are fellow citizens of Israel, members of the household of God.

If taken literally, a proselyte's birth is changed in Exodus 12:48. But, one need not literally change his birth to gain the same legal standing as a native born of Israel.

"Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision" in the context of nationality, a Jew could just be a citizen of Judea, not race, but still religion is implied. Jew=circumcision=religion, Greek=uncircumcision. Neither Jew nor Gentile can mean there's no division between OT and NT saints, but we are one body in Christ.

You might consider the New Testament contrasting Jews and Christians, especially the Gospel of John.

Christians are the true Jews. Those who believed Moses and the prophets would accept the king of the Jews. They'd be Christians. The NT calls the Pharisees Jews even though their Judaism was a corrupted. But, in Revelation, they're called those who say they are Jews but are not Jews. These aren't people pretending to be natural descendants of Abraham. They're people calling themselves Jews yet reject Jesus.

Judaism is a foreshadow of Christianity, where physical things foreshadowed spiritual things. Outward circumcision showed a male to be a Jew, but only circumcision of the heart makes someone saved.

First to those who followed the OT and then to those those further away.

 

Ok, I will have to give up the "never" statement and admit there is one passage that does.

 

The major issue I have with your position is it seems that you are developing a position to justify your eschatology. I refuse to accept a position that denies the existence of a racial ethnic Israel then or now. If you want to make "jew" a religious epitaph fine, but if you want to make "jew" void of any racial application to the natural born race of Jacob either in the Bible or now, I refuse to accept that as it is not a position you can prove, but it certainly can be disproved.

For example, the carefully kept Genealogies in Scripture from Abraham and David to the Israelites of the time of Christ prove a racial perpetuation continued. The repeated words "your fathers" referring to "Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" demand a racial continuation. The genealogy of Christ proves a racial continuation. So the "Israel" in the New Testament was an ethnic racial nation that included religious Jews who are were no part of the genealogies.

Paul defining what particular "tribe" he was born of proves racial ethnic continuity. Therefore Israel as a blood line from Abraham existed in the day of Paul or "kinsman ACCORDING TO THE FLESH" which is another proof of racial continuity. This same racial Israel exists today and you cannot possibly disprove it.

Furthermore, Paul says that "in Christ there is neither JEW or GENTILE" and so "Jew" is not a synonym with "Christian" and is not used as a religious term in that phrase or else "in Christ" denies being a true jew in a religous sense. If the term "Jew" in that phrase meant a RELIGIOUS view then "in Christ" there is no JEWISH RELIGION. If it means RACE then "in Christ' there is no racial distinctions. So either way your view simply does not fly.