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Featured Double Predestination

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Reynolds, Jul 31, 2018.

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  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Strawman
     
    #21 Revmitchell, Aug 1, 2018
  2. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Evasion of the point.
     
    #22 atpollard, Aug 1, 2018
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  3. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    No no, pointing out that you have used a strawman argument and therefore your point is invalid is not evasion.
     
    #23 Revmitchell, Aug 1, 2018
  4. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I know you're not asking me, but I feel moved to comment.
    I'm sure it's been explained here about 100 times, but the term 'Calvinist' has become a description of someone who believes in Particular Redemption, even if he disagrees with Calvin's teaching on everything else, or has never heard of him before. In the same way, people who believe in General Redemption are called Arminians even if they think the name has got something to do with Armenia.

    I refer to myself as a Calvinist, although I disagree with Calvin on paedobaptism, Presbyterianism, burning Servetus and probably a shed load of other things. I am also no great expert on Calvin and have only read snippets of the Institutes. But I do believe in Particular Redemption.

    Therefore don't ask me about Calvin, but feel free to ask me about Particular Redemption.
     
    #24 Martin Marprelate, Aug 1, 2018
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  5. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    How on EARTH can God be active in salvation and passive in damnation? To save IS to free from damnation.

    God passively lets sinners sin without interference from Himself? Blech!!

    Cain and Abel were both sinners. Abel is a member of the roll call of the faithful in Hebrews 11 - ergo, we would call him "saved" or righteous however you understand that to work for Old Testament people. In other words, Abel will be in heaven.

    Somewhere, somehow God was "active" in Abel's life - drawing him to Himself. Abel understood that and somewhere, somehow that we are not told of followed God.

    God also drew Cain to Himself. He actively told Cain how to be "accepted". Not my words, the Bible's words.
    • God warned Cain of sin in general and its threat.
    • God warned Cain of his specific sins.
    • God gave Cain the way of escape - "Do what is right; you must be the master over sin."
    That doesn't sound passive to me.
     
    #25 Scarlett O., Aug 1, 2018
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  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    This is a tough thing to fully comprehend, but Dr Sproul does a nice job explaining this in some detail!
    "Double" Predestination by R.C. Sproul
     
    #26 Yeshua1, Aug 1, 2018
  7. Felipe Rios

    Felipe Rios Member

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    That what he said in that quote, didn't he?
     
    #27 Felipe Rios, Aug 1, 2018
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Also, please remember that there are different type of calvinist, as some are like myself, holding to covenent theology and 5 point sof Grace, but not into infant baptist, nor the church layourt calvin was!
     
    #28 Yeshua1, Aug 1, 2018
  9. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    The problem lies in the different understanding of the Sovereignty of God. I have tried several times to explain it as simply as I can but for some reason those who have an irrational hatred of what they (wrongly) call "Calvinism" don't seem willing or capable of understanding.

    God is Sovereign. Period. If He is not Sovereign, He is not God. So, being Sovereign, everything that happens happens in His will. But His will is not unilaterally simplistic. His decretal will is absolute. What He decrees will come to pass without exception. But there is also His permissive will. He permits the sin and consequences for sin in mankind. It is not His will that man sin, and suffer the consequences, in the causative sense, but He allows it as a lesson for mankind regarding the consequences of sin.

    And that is what Dr. Reymond is saying in the above quote, and it is what John Calvin is saying in the OP quote. All that happens falls under the Sovereignty of God, but we must have a deeper understanding of His will in order to understand that His will is two fold, that which He decrees to come to pass and that which He allows to come to pass.

    When we come to understand the difference between His decretal will and His permissive will, the confusion goes away.

    :)
     
    #29 TCassidy, Aug 1, 2018
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  10. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    No. It is not what he said.
     
    #30 TCassidy, Aug 1, 2018
  11. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I think you may have misunderstood what is meant by "passive."

    Was God incapable of saving Cain? Or was Cain's will stronger than God's?

    Could God have saved Cain if He wanted to (active)? Or did He allow (passive) Cain to reject His direction?
     
    #31 TCassidy, Aug 1, 2018
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  12. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Yes, it is. Your charge is without supporting evidence. Just you saying so is not evidence. Support your charge by pointing out what about his post causes you to believe it is a straw man argument.
     
    #32 TCassidy, Aug 1, 2018
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  13. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Why would you call yourself a Calvinist? Why identify with Calvin and his many errors?
     
    #33 Reynolds, Aug 1, 2018
  14. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    The way I read it.
     
    #34 Reynolds, Aug 1, 2018
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Calvinism is the accepted theological term to denote one who holds to the truth of Bilbical election/predestination of the saints.
     
    #35 Yeshua1, Aug 1, 2018
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The lord has no need to determine to elect the lost to hell, as the result of the fall of Adam is that all of us were already headed down that pathway willingly. None of us on our owqn can get saved, so that is why he needed to "step in" and have His chosen ones to be saved out for Himslf now.
     
    #36 Yeshua1, Aug 1, 2018
  17. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    I understand what you are saying and appreciate your patience in explaining it. As I have said, I respect the Doctrine of Calvinism. I simply don't understand why so many Calvinists are inconsistent with Calvin. I can understand John Macarthur. Unless he has changed, he straight up owns double predestination. To be honest, I don't hate double predestination. It is man receiving the judgment of sin. I just fail to understand why so many "Calvinists" both run from it and are offended by it. It appears that It was the teaching of Calvin. It is the teaching of many that were classically referred to as "high Calvinists."
     
    #37 Reynolds, Aug 1, 2018
  18. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Well I heard an Old Line Baptist preacher put it this way, some say God predestined some to eternal life and some to eternal damnation... Well he said they are half right, he predestined those to eternal life, who were chosen by the Father and given to his Son in eternity... When Adam sinned, those not predestinated, he just left them where they were... Brother Glen:)
     
    #38 tyndale1946, Aug 1, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2018
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Again, just shows that Calivinsm does not mean having to accepting all things held to by John Calvin himself!
     
    #39 Yeshua1, Aug 1, 2018
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    yes, as predestination refers to just the Elect in christ and how God relates to them....
     
    #40 Yeshua1, Aug 1, 2018
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