On the criterion of "election"

We do not believe with our minds but our hearts, It is not a mental process. not work

Rom 10:9

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved

 

You can twist it all you want. But if our election is dependent on our faith first then it is salvation by works.

 

George, I am really not concerned whether or not other Calvinists agree with me. I have to be obedient to scripture even if that puts me at odds with those on "my side".

Respectfully, you misinterpret the passages you posted. You have bought into the foreseen faith view lock, stock, and barrel. The truth is that everyone who is predestined by the Father to eternal life will believe. The same verses you use to defend the foreseen faith view I use to defend predestination/election by the Father from eternity past. If God only elects those who believe, then God is beholding to His creation. The supposed free agency of man trumps the sovereignty of God. If you want me to be bluntly honest, you knew this before you started your last two threads. You started these threads under the guise of asking questions, but you already had an agenda.

 

No. I've posted nothing but scripture which you've pitifully failed to refute WITH scripture. You're just another dime a dozen whining complaining freewiller that refuses to accept God's sovereignty in the matter. You keep trying to steer the debate away from plain scripture to questioning the mind of God.

Paul summed up 'you people' perfectly, this is the entire gist of your complaints against God:

"Why doth He still find fault?"

...and the simple comeback to that is:

"Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?"

Carry on with your pitiful whining and complaining, you don't even equate to a gnat on an elephant's back.

I'm done. Have the last HUMANISTIC word if that's what satisfies you.

George Antonios is GREAT! It is of George Antonios that George Antonios is in Christ Jesus!

Not.

 

Nope and you have had this explained before.

God's pardon of salvation is for all sinners.If you are implying there are some humans who do not have a soul, and do not understand spiritual things, I might agree with you

 

Election is not dependent on our faith. It is only dependent on the work of Christ. Our faith is a response to that work and that is not a work.

When someone gives you a gift, reaching out and receiving the gift is not also part of giving that gift to yourself.

 

You are so off the mark here it is incredible

 

This is factually not true. If God's pardon was for all sinners then all would be pardoned. When someone is pardoned they do not have to accept that pardon, it is applied to them whether they want it or not.

 

Is faith the reaching out for the gift or is faith the gift?
When you are receiving gifts at a holiday, is it faith that opens the gift? If so, what is the gift?
Or, is faith the gift, but you determine if you are going to open it and use what you have been graciously given?

 

Paul tells us in Ephesians 2:8-10 that faith is the gift.

 

Salvation is the gift not faith.

Faith comes from the gospel. Without it man would not have any faith.

 

Rev, you didn't actually answer my questions. Would you be kind enough to answer them?

Is faith the reaching out for the gift or is faith the gift?
When you are receiving gifts at a holiday, is it faith that opens the gift? If so, what is the gift?
Or, is faith the gift, but you determine if you are going to open it and use what you have been graciously given?

 

Yes I did answer them.

 

He did answer them.

Neither. Salvation is the gift.

No. The recipient of the gift opens it. (Note that there would be no opening of the gift if there were no gift given.)

Whatever is under the wrapping paper.

The gift is salvation, by grace. We are saved by grace so that no one may boast about good works saving them.

 

I'm afraid you didn't. You stated:
"Faith comes from the gospel. Without it man would not have any faith."
Your statement does not speak to whether faith is what accepts the gift or whether faith is the gift.
However, I will ask a question about your comment.
If faith comes from the gospel, it does not necessarily come from God. Instead it comes from the preaching of the good news or the reading of the good news.
The gospel is the message given to all, but not all respond with joy to the gospel.
So you state:
"Faith comes from the gospel. Without it man would not have any faith."
I take this to mean that humans cannot have faith if they cannot receive the good news by some means.
Is faith a gift given by God to men or is faith the response of man to the gospel, with the gospel being God's gift?

 

What is under the wrapping paper?

Is it Salvation?

Is grace the fact that God chooses to whom he will give salvation?

Is faith, then, your work after or before God graciously gives you the gift of salvation?

 

In your metaphor, yes.

No.

Neither. Faith is not a work.



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Hmmm...it seems you have a conundrum in your understanding of grace, faith and God's work in salvation. I could point it out, but I don't think you would even listen, so I simply accept that you live with your conundrum and may even be ignorant of the problem that you face.

 

Yes. Definitely a #5 moment from this Calvinist.

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Or a #0 from ITL.
What do you actually believe, ITL?
Is faith a gift from God or not?