Featured A Novel Soteriological Explanation in the Calvinism vs Arminianism Debate

MB,
Here it is in the AV:

" For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." ( Romans 12:3 ).

Is not the context developed earlier in the verse, where it says, "to every man that is among you"?
I see that Paul is telling the Roman believers that God has dealt to every man that was among them the measure of faith.

Also, how about this?
" and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all [men] have not faith." ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ).

 

Look at it closer, Austin.

Respectfully,
I think that Derf is correct on this one.
We ( our hearts ) are the soil and the seed is the word of God...

" Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty." ( Matthew 13:18-23 ).

" Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep [it], and bring forth fruit with patience." ( Luke 8:11-15 ).

An unregenerate heart gets bogged down in the world, which they really never left.
A changed heart keeps the word, and brings forth true spiritual fruit ( Galatians 5:22-23 ) with patience.

The word of God, my friend.

In other Scriptures I might agree with you about believers being the "seed"...
Such as Romans 9:29;
But not in this one.

Take another look, and compare what I've underlined and highlighted for emphasis.

 

The passage isn't about believers, however. The passage is about humanity. We humans are the seed. We are not the soil.

NLT Bible. Matthew 13:3-9,18-23
[3]He told many stories in the form of parables, such as this one:“Listen! A farmer went out to plant some seeds.
[4]As he scattered them across his field, some seeds fell on a footpath, and the birds came and ate them.
[5]Other seeds fell on shallow soil with underlying rock. The seeds sprouted quickly because the soil was shallow.
[6]But the plants soon wilted under the hot sun, and since they didn’t have deep roots, they died.
[7]Other seeds fell among thorns that grew up and choked out the tender plants.
[8]Still other seeds fell on fertile soil, and they produced a crop that was thirty, sixty, and even a hundred times as much as had been planted!
[9]Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand.”


[18]“Now listen to the explanation of the parable about the farmer planting seeds:
[19]The seed that fell on the footpath represents those who hear the message about the Kingdom and don’t understand it. Then the evil one comes and snatches away the seed that was planted in their hearts.
[20]The seed on the rocky soil represents those who hear the message and immediately receive it with joy.
[21]But since they don’t have deep roots, they don’t last long. They fall away as soon as they have problems or are persecuted for believing God’s word.
[22]The seed that fell among the thorns represents those who hear God’s word, but all too quickly the message is crowded out by the worries of this life and the lure of wealth, so no fruit is produced.
[23]The seed that fell on good soil represents those who truly hear and understand God’s word and produce a harvest of thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times as much as had been planted!”

Two different versions, both clearly point to humans being the seed in the parable.

 

Just one example from your version that is so “clear”. The evil one snatched the seed out of “their” hearts.
Who is “their” talking about?

 

This is a very good question. Let us wrestle with this together.

[19]The seed that fell on the footpath represents those who hear the message about the Kingdom and don’t understand it. Then the evil one comes and snatches away the seed that was planted in their hearts.

We observe that the seed represents those who hear the message.
Question: Do humans hear the message or is it someone/something else?

We observe there is an evil one who snatches away the seed.

Question: Who is the evil one?
Question: Who/what is the seed?

We observe the seed was planted in their heart.

Question: Who/what is the seed?
Question: Who is "their"?
Question: What is their heart(s)?

Derf, I want to thank you for pointing this out. I have to humbly admit that my initial assertion may be wrong. I have to spend more time observing and seeking God as there certainly is a contradiction in this verse that I must work out with honest observation, not biased opinion.
So...thank you for pointing this out.

 

LOL, you get almost everything wrong and then claim the truth of scripture is wrong.

Faith is not a work for which a person can boast! Pretty simple really
Faith is according to grace. Pretty simple really

 

Yes, you can find some Calvinist commentaries which reguritate the reading of Calvinism into "the work of God." But when viewed in context, with people asking what they can do, and Jesus answering the question of what they could do, the intended meaning, held by the majority of scholars, is John 6:29 meaning is that requires that the fallen believe in Jesus.

 

Y1 loves to claim others believe in "inherit faith." But it is his fiction, and his millstone.

 

Three of the four soils did not suffer from total spiritual inability because they believed the gospel to a degree. Pay no attention to those who deny biblical truth.

And why did Jesus speak in parables? Folks to prevent the fallen audience from understanding and being healed, Matthew 13:15.

Jesus read you bible folks, it is all there for you to understand.

 

Bravo, Austin! Let's do more wrestling like this!

I'll try to minimize the caustic responses on my part!

 

Most of what you've responded is a combination of the ad-hominem and the red herring fallacies and, as such, is not worth responding to.

Again... Image and likeness are two different words, and they are not interchangeable or synonymous. צֶלֶם and דְּמוּת are of different roots. Since I've already explained it to you and it has bounced off, I have no need to explain it again. Suffice it to say, just because you want them to mean the same does not make it so.

Again... there is a fundamental difference. Man can "create" by re-arranging the material God has created. God creates out of nothing. In writing that sentence you use pre-existing stuff that God created. In no way, shape, or form, did you come close to "creating" in a way reminiscent of the way God creates.

I don't know that I've seen a more thorough demonstration of a complete and total lack of theological acumen. This line of questioning is, again, a red herring. I have already explained these things to you. This foolishness of yours is above my spending of time on it. I leave you to your foolishness and the mercy of God.

The Archangel

 

@Derf B @Dave G
Thank you both for challenging my assertions of the parable of the sower.
I have read multiple english translations, sought to observe the parable, ask questions of my observations and rightly divide the word of God. After this, I reviewed what others had written.
Therefore, I openly retract my statement that the seed is humanity and the sower is God. While the NLT does seem to translate it that way, the majority of translations do not. In truth, the better observation is that the seeds scattered is the word of God (the gospel). The sower is the one who shares the gospel. The soil is the one who receives the gospel and the things that take place is the ordination of God via actions of both the devil and God (with God Sovereignly overseeing).

I would rather be honest with God's word than be prideful and arrogant with my opinion. Therefore, I openly thank you and appreciate your iron, which sharpens iron.

 

Since you didn’t address my arguments but attempted to deflect from them and then want to take your ball and go home, I’ll just declare victory and move on. But I’d rather continue the discussion if we can get to the meat of the meaning of the text.

Enjoy,
Derf


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Yet you responded How great thou art. It's interesting just how proud you really are. Pride goes before the fall

Just because you pretend to be so knowledgeable doesn't make it so either.

What pride and arrogance you qualify to represent the opposite side of Christianity

Thank you for leaving in disgrace
Completely Asinine; You should pray you don't trip over your own arrogance and pride.
MB[/QUOTE]

 

You are right it is to every man because every man has a measure of faith other wise you have found a contradiction in scripture and we all know there are no contradictions in scripture.
The actual wording of the verse in the YLT is like this;
2Th 3:2 and that we may be delivered from the unreasonable and evil men, for the faith is not of all;

"The faith" for me describes the faith in Christ Jesus. Of course not all have faith in Christ.
MB

 

Declare victory? Over your wrongness? By all means go ahead. You’ve proven that you don’t care to go into the meat of the text. You continually make assertions without backing them up and hold to them in the face of evidence to the contrary.

The Archangel


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In case you or anyone else was wondering, this is pretty much the textbook example of the ad-hominem.

The Archangel


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So... disagreeing with your position is what makes one arrogant?? Hmmmmm... Arrogance in the Bible is to proudly do what is right in your own eyes (as opposed to doing what is right in God's eyes). Your entire ad-hominem is nothing more than a personal attack on my Christian character. To write such a thing (when considering Jesus' call to love one another) must mean you think you're doing the Lord's work by calling me proud and asinine. Again, considering Jesus' commands to His followers, what you've done here--acting in direct opposition to God's word as it concerns a brother in Christ--is the height of arrogance.

The Archangel

 

You are the one that claims God credits something that is a free gift from Him as somehow being righteous!