Annihilationism or Eternal Torment

Sure they do.
When unbelievers die, JWs teach that those people are annihilated. That's the only group I have ever heard teach annihilationism.
You and I are sinners. Be aware of what that means...

 

Sure they teach annihilationism...as do atheists. In that view a non believer is encouraged to be a hedonist and narcissist. "Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you die."

 

I have always understood Deuteronomy 32:22 as the main text referred to in Luke 16:23-24, Luke 16:26 where the rich man looks up from a flame seeing Abraham and Lazarus above him in Hades. Also referred to in Luke 16:27-29, they have Moses. I fail to see annhialationism in Luke 16:19-31 in connection with Deuteronmy 32:22.

Explain to me how you get annhialationism in Sheol/Hades in Deuteronomy 32:22 also given the story in Luke 16:19-31 which is not an annhialation story for Hades. So you claim makes no sense to me at all.

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A new argument: If annhialationism is true, as far as atheism goes, effectiively makes no difference in eternity. The atheist ultimately gets what is believed as an atheist - ceases to be.

 

Biblical Annihilationists don't believe that.
The Conditional Immortality crowd does not agree with the J.W. teaching.

 

The fire in Deuteronomy 32:22 Consumes.
An atheist given Annihilationism misses out on an Eternal Life in perfection in heaven etc...
Instead, an atheist is resurrected to stand judgement and an awful and terrifying permanent death sentence in a fire that consumes them utterly.

 

Deuteronomy 32: 9, 15-43
This passage, and verse 22 in particular, has nothing to do with eternal annihilation. Taking one verse out of context is just poor use of the Bible.

But the Lord's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.

“But Jeshurun grew fat, and kicked;
you grew fat, stout, and sleek;
then he forsook God who made him
and scoffed at the Rock of his salvation.
16 They stirred him to jealousy with strange gods;
with abominations they provoked him to anger.
17 They sacrificed to demons that were no gods,
to gods they had never known,
to new gods that had come recently,
whom your fathers had never dreaded.
18 You were unmindful of the Rock that bore you,
and you forgot the God who gave you birth.

19 “The Lord saw it and spurned them,
because of the provocation of his sons and his daughters.
20 And he said, ‘I will hide my face from them;
I will see what their end will be,
for they are a perverse generation,
children in whom is no faithfulness.
21 They have made me jealous with what is no god;
they have provoked me to anger with their idols.
So I will make them jealous with those who are no people;
I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled by my anger,
and it burns to the depths of Sheol,
devours the earth and its increase,
and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains.

23 “‘And I will heap disasters upon them;
I will spend my arrows on them;
24 they shall be wasted with hunger,
and devoured by plague
and poisonous pestilence;
I will send the teeth of beasts against them,
with the venom of things that crawl in the dust.
25 Outdoors the sword shall bereave,
and indoors terror,
for young man and woman alike,
the nursing child with the man of gray hairs.
26 I would have said, “I will cut them to pieces;
I will wipe them from human memory,”
27 had I not feared provocation by the enemy,
lest their adversaries should misunderstand,
lest they should say, “Our hand is triumphant,
it was not the Lord who did all this.”’

28 “For they are a nation void of counsel,
and there is no understanding in them.
29 If they were wise, they would understand this;
they would discern their latter end!
30 How could one have chased a thousand,
and two have put ten thousand to flight,
unless their Rock had sold them,
and the Lord had given them up?
31 For their rock is not as our Rock;
our enemies are by themselves.
32 For their vine comes from the vine of Sodom
and from the fields of Gomorrah;
their grapes are grapes of poison;
their clusters are bitter;
33 their wine is the poison of serpents
and the cruel venom of asps.

34 “‘Is not this laid up in store with me,
sealed up in my treasuries?
35 Vengeance is mine, and recompense,
for the time when their foot shall slip;
for the day of their calamity is at hand,
and their doom comes swiftly.’
36 For the Lord will vindicate his people
and have compassion on his servants,
when he sees that their power is gone
and there is none remaining, bond or free.
37 Then he will say, ‘Where are their gods,
the rock in which they took refuge,
38 who ate the fat of their sacrifices
and drank the wine of their drink offering?
Let them rise up and help you;
let them be your protection!

39 “‘See now that I, even I, am he,
and there is no god beside me;
I kill and I make alive;
I wound and I heal;
and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.
40 For I lift up my hand to heaven
and swear, As I live forever,
41 if I sharpen my flashing sword
and my hand takes hold on judgment,
I will take vengeance on my adversaries
and will repay those who hate me.
42 I will make my arrows drunk with blood,
and my sword shall devour flesh—
with the blood of the slain and the captives,
from the long-haired heads of the enemy.’

43 “Rejoice with him, O heavens;
bow down to him, all gods,
for he avenges the blood of his children
and takes vengeance on his adversaries.
He repays those who hate him
and cleanses his people's land.”

 

The lava out of the mountians, ". . . and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains." Which is not lower Hades where the rich man was, Luke 16:24. Note also, Numbers 16:33, "So they, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into Sheol: and the earth closed upon them, and they perished from among the assembly." From the surface of the earth to Sheol, aka Hades. So it is my understqneding that there is no Annihilation of the souls in Sheol/Hades.

 

Problem...Numbers 16:33 says they "perished"
You just said they "went down 'Alive' and then they 'perished'."

The lava of the mountains "consumes" with it's increase....as you've just said.

It's normally an unfounded boast..but, Annihilation of the wicked is almost literally on every page of Scripture.
You can only ignore the text so much and then it overwhelms you with it's consistent teaching that the wicked will die.
Just as was promised to Adam in Genesis chapter 2.
Ask yourself, why God put Cherubim to guard the entrance to the garden?? (P.S.: it's in the text)
Why could Adam not go back to the tree of Life?
What did God say would happen to Adam when he sinned?

It's all there.

I do appreciate your willingness to study Scripture.
Scripture screams Annihilation of the wicked from the Hilltops.........It's even in all of your proof-texts.

John 3:16......just read it .
Problem is, you've been taught that Annihilationists don't think the Lake of Fire is real.
We do think it's real....very real.
It is a horrible terrifying and all-consuming fire of unspeakable wrath which consumes utterly, painfully, terrifyingly, and is a horrible fate given the alternative of Eternal Life and bliss.

Fire kills.
Fire destroys.
I believe the wicked are cast into a Lake of Fire.
You do not.
You believe they are cast into something.....which cannot really be a fire because they would die if it were fire. Or, maybe it's a "fire" but, it interacts with humanity in some sense in which we cannot know, because it's nothing like what humans would act like or suffer if they were cast into actual fire. A human in a fire can't have protracted conversations with Abraham.........a simple drop of water would disperse before it ever touched their tongue.

You don't believe in the Lake of Fire at all.
I do.
It's a violent horrifying Lake of Fire, and it will consume, those thrown therein will perish, they shall be burned up, and none cast therein shall live forever, because they have not been given eternal life.

It's so simple a caveman can see it.

 

It has nothing to do with the fate of the damned at all genius. But, no one was talking to you.
But, it does happen to be the case that the only time fire is mentioned....
It consumes, it doesn't torture.
Because, well, it's a FIRE, and that's what fires actually do.
It's called reading the Bible and actually believing it as written.

Taking a whole chapter is possibly worse.
And this chapter has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand, so, why did you copy/paste it????
So stop doing it.

 

So...you misused Deuteronomy 32:22 and took it entirely out of context, yet you still are trying to make a fallacious argument. Got it.

 

Not souls in Sheol, but "the earth with her increase, . . ." So you not believing this distinction. So on this interpretation we cannot agree.

The story in Luke 16:19-31 is in accordance with Deuteronomy 32:22. And we do not agree on this matter.

 

Not a problem as you suppose. They did indeed perish from the living oo the earth.

 

No, I'm not the one who keeps mentioning Deut. 32:22. That is 37818's good self.
Nor am I the one who posted the entire chapter for no reason whatsoever, that was in fact, your good self.
The chapter is irrelevant. I'm not using it for any purpose, because it serves none in this conversation.
It has nothing to do with the final state of the wicked.

 

Context is important. Therefore, in context, annihilationism is...annihilated as a valid argument.

 

You have made no arguments.
You're just making a bald assertion. If you want to make an argument, feel free. But, inasmuch as you seem to still believe that believers in Conditional Immortality mirror the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses, and have done nothing to prove the contrary, I remain in doubt that you are particularly well qualified to render any convincing argument for your view. But feel free.

 

I provided an entire document with scripture reference to show how annihilationism is false. Go back and read it.

 

The Peterson stuff? Way ahead of you, already familiar with his work and arguments, and I've read that before. I am quite familiar with this topic. His arguments are as good as any defender of ECT, but ultimately not that compelling, because he has to contend with Scripture, not me or anyone else. Defenders of ETC's arguments are never very compelling. One last thing, here's my advice: if you ever know anyone who is looking afresh at the Biblical data and considering the truth of Conditional Immortality, don't give them those links. It is invariably the comparative weakness of those arguments which puts the nail in the coffin. Annihilationists rarely convince anyone of their position: they plant the seed and then the weakness of the ECT arguments by comparison is what convinces them. Seriously, do a poll of any annihilationist you know who changed their mind. I don't go on B.B. to click on links that I've read years before. But, anyway this thread is old, and probably pointless.

 

And your arguments are not compelling. Ultimately, you are promoting the same belief as an atheist.

 

I haven't really made any arguments for Annihilationism. It is unnecessary. All I have to do is allow defenders of ECT to keep talking. It is people like you (who try to liken Conditionalism to atheism) who are losing the battle for the Evangelical mind on this issue.

Compelling and Biblically based arguments for Annihilationism are proffered (not usually by me) because I'm not interested in wasting my time.

Statements like yours above are why true Bible-Believers are abandoning ECT in droves.

Here's how it happens:
Step 1: Someone who has believed in ECT for years (and has always assumed Annihilationism is mere heresy) hears a cogent and Biblically-based argument by a conservative Evangelical for Annihilationism (this usually only makes them curious to know more).
Step 2: They study the issue a little more (not even close to being convinced) and seek to find the ECT response to modern arguments for Conditional Immortality.
Step 3: They realize how comparatively weak the response to Annihilationist arguments by even the best defenders of ECT (like Peterson) really are and desperately seek to find a stronger apologist for your failing doctrine.
Step 4: They realize the paucity of actual Biblical evidence for your view and compare the overwhelming evidence for C. Immortality.
Step 5: They then come across brilliantly crafted statements such as yours above where, with a dismissive wave of the hand people such as yourself compare them to atheists, finally realizing that that is all you've ever really had.

For instance: Here's a link to anyone interested where Chris Date debates with defender of ECT Phil Fernandes...........frankly, Date wipes the floor with him. Fernandes does admirably, but the Scripture just is not on his side. He's bringing a knife to a gun-fight.
Chris Date and Phil Fernandes Debate Hell - YouTube

 

You do not know any such thing.
Luke 3:16-17, ". . . and with fire: . . . but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable." Mark 9:49-48, ". . . cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Jesus on the cross, Psalms 22:1, Psalms 22:6, "But I am a worm, . . ."