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The Word "Faith" Appears Only Twice In The Old Testament.

Discussion in 'Other Discussions' started by Jacob59, Feb 23, 2021.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    All OT saved same method as was in the NT, they place faith and trust in the promised Messiah to come, while we received Him who has come!
     
    #21 Yeshua1, Feb 24, 2021
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  2. Jacob59

    Jacob59 Member

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    Yes. Personal interaction resulting in an emotional "sigh" is currently the best which can be achieved, here, for some reason I will not risk to state.

    Fortunately, Christ taught and modeled the folly of including human feelings in discussions. Oddly, His rarely seen "cry" and "sigh" is used by Christians as an excuse for them to paint with their feelings upon all matters. Sit in a hermrneutics course and watch the titled professor lapse into emotional preaching. I have seen it.
     
    #22 Jacob59, Feb 24, 2021
  3. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    Again, I see no humor. You seem to place yourself above Christians period with your 'humor' and the 'degrading use of our doctrine' as 'soup'. Yet I haven't seen anything yet of your doctrine that impresses. You erred at the outset in implying that faith was only located in two places in the Old Testament.

    You say in the 'first Covenant' faith was not an issue. I suppose you mean the Mosaic Covenant which is the Law. But there was a Covenant before the Law or the Mosaic Covenant. It was the Abrahamic Covenant found in (Gen.12:1-3) (Gen.13:14-18) (Gen. 15:1-6) And faith was very much a part of the Abrahamic Covenant.

    When God told Abraham to leave Ur and go to a land where He would show him, did Abraham have faith? Yes he did. Did he obey God? Yes he did. So, God told Abraham what he must do and Abraham believed God and obeyed. Correct? All of this was important to God to establish His Covenant.

    But....even though Abraham exercised faith and obeyed God in going to a land he didn't know of, it was not at that point that God declared him righteous. Why? Because Abraham had a part in leaving Ur through his obedience. And God, when declaring one righteous, does not want man to have any part in it. Man must only believe.

    So, God waits, concerning the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham of a seed, till Abraham and Sarah are too old to have children. Till Abraham could do nothing and it must be through faith in God alone. And Abraham did exercise that faith, and was counted righteous. (Gen. 15:6) (Gal. 3:6-9) Abraham's faith was directed toward the promised seed, which would eventually be Christ. The same faith that we as believers have.

    Quantrill
     
    #23 Quantrill, Feb 25, 2021
  4. Jacob59

    Jacob59 Member

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    Try to accept this Thread contains an issue, rather than any need for personal remarks. Calm down.

    Abraham's faith was just the first part of God's redemptive plan. It was not in response to Christ's actual incarnation and work of the Cross for Gentiles. Therefore, Believing Gentiles today have a far greater understanding and faith than Abraham. There is no need to stand in awe of him.

    The original readers of Hebrews just needed a perspective of the whole "faith in Jesus as the Messiah" concept. It was all new for them, after being pounded by The Law for 2 thousand years.
     
    #24 Jacob59, Feb 25, 2021
  5. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    Calm down? I am calm. I was just pointing out the obvious, which you continue to display by your reply. You were shown you were in error concerning faith. The faith of Abraham is the same faith of the believer in Christ.

    In the Christians walk of faith, I would say few come anywhere near to the faith that Abraham exhibited in his walk with God. (Gen. 22:5) "And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you."

    Did you catch that faith? "and come again to you" Abraham was going to kill his son, as commanded by God. But he had faith that God would raise him from the dead. So, you tell me that you would be able to do that. Of course you must say that because you don't have any respect for the faith of Abraham.

    Quantrill
     
    #25 Quantrill, Feb 25, 2021
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  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus stated that Abraham saw his day and was glad, correct?
     
    #26 Yeshua1, Feb 25, 2021
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Posting fiction (instilled by Calvinism's irresistible grace) "gift of faith?"
    The level of Abraham's faith (shallow) is non-germane. God credited his faith as righteousness. Full Stop.l
    Scripture does present the "key." To repeat: Romans 4:3-5 teaches Abraham's faith was just like New Covenant Faith, the key is whether or not an individual's worthless filthy rag faith is credited as righteousness or not by God alone. The fact OT saints had to wait to be made perfect is not germane to their salvation, just to its timing.

    To claim the cited scripture does not say God credited Abraham's faith is straight-up denial of truth.
     
    #27 Van, Feb 25, 2021
  8. Jacob59

    Jacob59 Member

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    I agree. Humorless Believers abound.

    Grandiose and confident views of Scriptural panorama are not part of the Gospel. Mental agreement to Church precepts with an obligatory emotional veneer come from Laodicea. Well ordered narrative ducks are not a witness of New Life in Christ.

    The Bronze Age Patriarchs were at a large disadvantage, and did the best they could. God supplied them with enough to keep them going, Abraham, for instance, was a stately and enduring bearded figure for us, but not an example.

    Similar to Moses not being an example of marital fidelity. Similar to Jacob trying to be a wheeler dealer with God even as he had first hand conversations with Him. Even as King Solomon could not control his harem with Godly Wisdom. Even as Noah was a drunkard. Even as Abraham foolishly did not keep his woman Sarah from coopting his promised lineage.

    Remember, Hebrews ch. 11 was written to First Century Messianic Jews struggling to have faith in non Mosaic statements. Today, Gentile Christians need not struggle with faith. They need only to remember and speak rote Doctrines, and stay out of civil crime.
     
    #28 Jacob59, Feb 26, 2021
  9. Jacob59

    Jacob59 Member

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    So, you do agree the depth of faith in Abraham was far from identical to the faith of Believers today. I go further. He is not even an example for us. None of us are as burdened and minimally informed as Abraham, per our having the retrospect of the entire Scripture. Abraham had nothing written.

    Reading in between the lines of Bible narrative, under the guidance of Professional Church Talkers and Ivory Tower Theologians, is today the basis of for a huge and enduring pot of over cooked Evangelicalism.

    "Our Faith is As Secure As The Temple of Our Worship!" Did you know today's Church in no manner resemples that of the First Century? No matter how much one agrees with the Biblical record?
     
    #29 Jacob59, Feb 26, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
  10. Jacob59

    Jacob59 Member

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    Well done. Pursue more thought.
     
    #30 Jacob59, Feb 26, 2021
  11. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    When you say 'Grandiose and confident views of Scriptural panorama are not part of the Gospel', what you mean is Scripture is against you.

    I have always believed it best to have the view of the Old Testament saints that God has. And God has a high view of Noah's faith. (Ez. 14:14) But of course, you see Noah as a drunkard. Tell it to God when you get there.

    You present a very narcissistic christian faith. You set yourself above the saints of God and mock and judge them. You either don't know yourself or are lying to yourself. For we Christian believers are just like the Old Testament saints in all their failings. Until you come to that knowledge, your faith is very repulsive.

    Quantrill
     
    #31 Quantrill, Feb 26, 2021
  12. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    I answered that in the post you are addressing. Why ask me again. The believers faith in Christ is the same faith that Abraham had.

    All your ramblings now simply say, Scripture is against you.

    Quantrill
     
    #32 Quantrill, Feb 26, 2021
  13. Jacob59

    Jacob59 Member

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    Nope. The Grandiose Vistas are indeed there, but are not germane to the Good News of Salvation. For instance, they serve for counterpoint to the terror of God, and to give a taste of hope in His Providence. They also mock the Idolatry hated by The Father.

    I am not set above the OT Saints. I just have a realistic view of them, and am far from idolizing them. Review Isaiah 41:14, "Fear not, thou worm Jacob."

    Lol.

    We Christian Believers are related to but not "just like" the OT people. Trying to piggyback on their identity is weak. The New Man in Christ known by Paul is nothing of the Old Covenant, just as Glorified Christ is far superior to Merely Sinless Adam.

    I might mention, your nonstop adhominem is a poor witness. Stick to the topic here.
     
    #33 Jacob59, Feb 26, 2021
  14. Jacob59

    Jacob59 Member

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    Repetition is God's method upon recalcitrance.
     
    #34 Jacob59, Feb 26, 2021
  15. Jacob59

    Jacob59 Member

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    I did not say Abraham was not credited for his faith. Misrepresenting my words is an unfortunate dishonesty.

    I am saying Abraham is not a realistic example for us. If he is an example, then state exactly how his type of faith appears in your own life. Give a simple, non desperate answer.
     
    #35 Jacob59, Feb 26, 2021
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The denial of Romans 4:4-5, and Romans 4:23-24 on your part was no misrepresentation. Here is what you said, "No Scripture mentions such a "key."
    And here was my response: Scripture does present the "key." To repeat: Romans 4:3-5 teaches Abraham's faith was just like New Covenant Faith, the key is whether or not an individual's worthless filthy rag faith is credited as righteousness or not by God alone.

    Again the key is whether or not God credits our faith, as worthless or meritless as it is, as righteousness.
     
    #36 Van, Feb 26, 2021
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Both Jesus and Paul saw him as the father of the faith of those who would be in a Covenant relationship with God!
     
    #37 Yeshua1, Feb 26, 2021
  18. Jacob59

    Jacob59 Member

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    Yes, you have a personal response. That is all you have.

    "Again," No person can presume to add to Scripture by claiming "keys." Such "keys" are mere ambitious speculation. Froward is the descriptive word upon "keys."
     
    #38 Jacob59, Feb 26, 2021
  19. Jacob59

    Jacob59 Member

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    How do you personally imitate the faith and life of Abraham?
     
    #39 Jacob59, Feb 26, 2021
  20. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    As the OP is now banned, this thread is closed.
     
    #40 Squire Robertsson, Feb 26, 2021
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