Featured My (JonC) view of the Atonement

No need to slander MM..he is correct after all.

 

The difficulty (imo) is how one translated “huper” (hyper) and, if I recall correctly it is never translated “instead” but generally “for.”

However, what I also do not recall is if the verse(s) in question actually use “huper” or some other word.

In English, we often interchange instead and for, but the Greek is far more intricate in selecting words, and I just don’t trust my ability to be consistent in such work.

 

Chill dude. How many threads have you started on the Trinity?

 

Because it is THE most difficult Doctrine! The Death of Jesus Christ is NOT!

 

I wasn’t going to dignify this rant, but then thought some might misunderstand.

1) The recent threads were on the presentation of PSA theory, the history, and lack of Scripture support. It matters little if you disagree, but that was the theme of the threads.

2) Your opinion about the theme of the PSA does not provide Scripture proof. If you actually have such proof, start a thread and produce it. We have from the first post desired proof. Not opinion, though we don’t mind opinion, but Specific Scripture proof.

3) You are not the sole authority on the BB in languages. Thankfully there are others, so do not become puffed up in your own presentations.


You have every right to correct my mistakes in language work.

But if you start showing attitude about it, that is another matter.

Not everyone desires to color within the lines someone else draws.

State your thinking graciously, with as little offense as you have in you, and do not neglect to display patience, gentleness, kindness, meekness, …

 

You don’t think so?

You have the death of Christ all figured out?

You have the trinity all figured out, too?

ok

 

This is getting wearisome. Let me give you three words that will help you in understanding the meanings of words in any language:
Context, context and context. Within a semantic range, which, in the case of most Greek prepositions is very large, the context will always determine the meaning.

'Christ died for our sins.' Obviously, it does not mean that He died instead of our sins. Nor does it mean that He died on behalf of our sins. Our sins don't need any help from Him! He died; we don't (John 11:25-26); He died in our place because of our sins. He died that we might live forever. He died instead of us. Got it now?

 

I do not, and never have said that that 'one one's behalf' means 'instead of.' 'On behalf of always' has a certain meaning, 'for the benefit of' or possibly 'as a representative of.' But I have shown you multiple examples - real examples of real language - where it must inevitably mean 'in the place of' or 'instead of.' Do you want me to list them all again? I will if it will help you understand. The context will help determine the exact meaning.

One of us does that, but I think you'll find it is not I.

You ask about my education in the Greek language. I answered this once before, in response, I think, to you (I don't know who else would have asked me).
I studied Classical Greek for seven years at school and university as an unsaved youngster. 20+ years later, when I was saved, I worked up my Greek again with the help of a little part-time seminary I attended, and I learned the differences between Classical and koine Greek (not actually that many).

What I will say to you is that if you do not understand that context determines meaning, then however many years you studied Greek or any other language, you wasted your time.

 

Context determines meaning is true no matter the language. Even in the first language people don’t always pick up the context. Working in Scriptures it is all the more true.

How many times have we all been confronted with a poster who grabs a verse no taking the time to see if it really applies.

This is one reason I do much enjoy reading from you, your patience is remarkable.

Classical Greek! I don’t know of any schools in the US that teach that anymore.

 

There are those who have the gift of languages.

In the verse from 1 Corinthians 15:

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
​

The two “for” are two different Greek words.

I wonder if it would be good to find a translation that when faced with using the same English word twice in the same area would consider replacing one so the context was better discerned by the less skilled reader.

In this case, the above might read,

“Accordingly” I delivered to you as of primary importance what I also received: that Christ died “in behalf of” our sins in accordance to the Scriptures.
​

The “for” word (hyper) is a stand alone can not always be discerned from another “for” word - (peri), or for “gar” which is a conjunction. “Peri” is often used concerning people matters.

Anyway, I think I am rambling.

 

On what basis and how was the wrath and judgement of God due to us propitiated then?

 

What does it mean to JonC when He who knew no sin became sin for and on our behalf?

 

Christ was never a sinner, therefore no need for wrath.