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Featured Roman Catholic Mass at Calvin's Church in Geneva!

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Jerome, Mar 19, 2022.

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  1. Campion

    Campion Member

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    Exactly! And if you continue past verse 48, Jesus explicitly states He is the bread which cometh down from heave and this bread he gives is his very flesh!

    John 6:51: "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

    Hence at the Last Supper, when He institutes the Eucharist foreshadowed in John 6, we hear Him say, "This IS my body."
     
  2. Campion

    Campion Member

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    Indeed.

    I've always wondered what exactly are they memorializing in their mock eucharist service? By their own admission, nothing was even offered so as to be commemorated until the next day.
     
  3. Campion

    Campion Member

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    When Christ instituted the Eucharist in the Upper Room, He gave the Apostles communion under both species (bread and wine). Every bishop and priest, when offering the Eucharist, is required to communicate under both species. So the men to whom Christ instituted the Eucharist, and their successors, do receive under both forms. His instruction for the institution of the Eucharist was to these men exclusively, as is evident from His further words to those present, “Do this in commemoration of me.”

    So what about the laity as you rightly point out? Well, because of the hypostatic union, the Church teaches that Christ is contained whole and entire under each species. This means that whoever communicates under the species of bread or of wine receives not a divided Christ, but receives Christ whole and entire, body and blood, soul and Divinity. Therefore the lay person who receives only the consecrated bread partakes as equally of the body and blood of Christ as the officiating bishop or deacon who receives both consecrated species.

    When Christ first instructs his followers on the Eucharist in His bread of life discourse in John 6, He actually makes no reference to the chalice (or cup), but rather only to the Eucharistic bread, to which He ascribes all the efficacy which communion leads to. The reason, we can say, is because we receive the Glorified Christ, whose flesh and blood cannot be divided.

    "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world." The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" Then Jesus said to them: "Amen, amen, I say unto you: unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father has sent me and I live by the Father: so he that eats me, the same also shall live by me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers ate manna and are dead. He that eats this bread shall live for ever."


    St. Paul, clarifying the Church's teaching from antiquity, confirms that if a man communicates unworthily, under either species, he is guilty of the body and blood of Christ. "Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, OR drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord." (1 Cor 11:27)
     
  4. Cathode

    Cathode Well-Known Member

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    No.

    “And when Judas had taken the morsel, Satan entered into him. Then Jesus said to Judas, “What you are about to do, do quickly.” John 13:27

    This Covenant of Christ’s Body and Blood, is not symbolic, it is very real and deadly serious. It is not play acting.

    Eating bread and drinking wine does not have these consequences, eating and drinking Christ’s Body and Blood unworthily does.
     
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  5. Cathode

    Cathode Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think Protestants or Baptist’s intentions are bad in anyway, they are following scripture the way they understand the ordinances be followed. Through circumstance and history this is where they are.

    Their intentions being pure, and with the love of the Lord and faith in their hearts, I like to think that Jesus blesses them in some way at their services.
     
  6. Campion

    Campion Member

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    I do agree that they worship God to the extent they understand him, despite how little or how erroneous that understanding is.
     
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    You need to start at verse 35, "I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. . . ." That "never" means "not in any way." And verse 47 says regarding for "eternal life." The meaning is this only needs to be done once to have eternal life. Not over and over again.
     
  8. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    Bigger than yours
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    This is totally an eisegetical fantasy.
    The unworthily was using the remembrance as a meal. 1 Corinthians 11:21-22, ". . . For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. . . ." Verse,34, ". . . And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. . . ."
     
  10. unprofitable

    unprofitable Active Member

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    To say that Christ's command to "do this in memory of me" was only given to those present at the supper denies scriptural intent and context. It in no way shows that it was given exclusively to those at the supper.

    Christ was instructing the members of the beginnings of the body of Christ as a local church. This can be paralleled with Gen 18:19 where it is said, "For I know him and he will command his children and his household after him (perpetuity}, and THEY shall keep the way of the lord, to do justice and judgment, that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him,"

    It would seem according to your reasoning that since both "species" are contained in each "specie" then it should be possible for the priest to only use one or the other for the observance. If this is the case, can the priest use just wine instead of bread?

    Where, in scripture, other than your theory of hypostatic union, can you find only the priest needing to take both elements but not the laity?

    The bread represents the body of Christ and the blood the new covenant. Neither can be taught separately without touching on the other especially because the scriptures say that the life of the body is in the blood. This shows the need of both the bread and the wine in the observance as Christ commanded.

    Paul is not eliminating nor separating the elements in his use of the word OR but showing that it can be in either or BOTH.

    In fact, 1 Cor 11:27 shows that the members of the church at Corinth were partaking of BOTH elements and not just one.

    The Passover meal contained both the ram, the bread, and the wine. It was never observed with one element only.
     
  11. Cathode

    Cathode Well-Known Member

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    It is far more than just a remembrance, it is a Covenant, the New and Everlasting Covenant.
    Many are called but few are chosen.

    The drama of salvation plays out even today, people do not believe Jesus flesh is real food and blood real drink.
    They refuse to eat his body and drink his blood as he instructed.

    If people do believe in him they would believe His words, and partake of the Covenant feast.

    That’s how belief saves people, by doing what Jesus says.

    Why call me Lord and do not the things I say? Basically.
     
    #91 Cathode, Mar 29, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2022
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    You are making the claim the act of remembrance of the New Covenant is the Covenant. It is not. Eternal life is not anything we can obtain by doing. Either God has given eternal life to a person or the person does not have it. I have eternal life [not yet the immortality] because God has given it to me because I actually know Him by knowing the Lord Jesus Christ [1 Timothy 2:5, John 17:3]. 1 John 5:9-13.
     
  13. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    all of life illustrates Bible doctrine. - Donald Barnhouse
    "Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead." - Jesus [Matthew 8:22]
     
  14. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    If you eat His Flesh and His Blood, your religion is cannibalism.
    If you drink His Blood physically, you are cursed.
    Jesus said He was talking about the Spirit and therefore His Words meant the acceptance of Jesus Christ by being born again.
    Read what I said already before:

    If you drink the Blood of Jesus, you are CURSED!

    Why?

    Leviticus 17:
    11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

    14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.



    Lord Supper was given to the Believers as a Reminder of His Sacrifice at the Cross for remembering Him.
    Jesus never told anyone to suck His Blood dripping down from the Cross.

    Gospel John 6 tells us that we must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood

    John 6: 53
    53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


    This is talking about Being Born Again, by having the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

    John 6:63
    63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.



    RCC people misunderstand this teaching and try to immitate the Flesh and Blood of Jesus by the Transubstantiation Theory.

    They lift up the Cookies and Chalice asking their god to forgive their sins, BECAUSE RCC don't believe all the sins of the world were already forgiven by the precious Blood of Jesus at the Cross. Therefore they ask their god to forgive their sins every week at the Mass.
    Mass came from Missa in Latin which originated from Mactatus which means the slaughter or sacrifice. Massacre came from Mactatus or Macto.
    Because RCC don't believe all the sins were forgiven already at the Cross, they don't like to believe Hebrews 10:18

    Hebrews 10:17-18
    17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
    18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


    There is NO NEED for Sacrifice for the sins, because Jesus offered the complete, perfect
    sacrifice for the sins of the world at the Cross, Once For ALL

    RCC rely on their own sacirifice every week by the Mass, but the Truly Born Again Christians remember and rely on the Great Sacrifice by Lord Jesus Christ with His Own Blood, and give thanks to the great Redeemer Jesus Christ.
    No more Mass, No more Transubstantiation, No more Real Presence, No More Priest because all the Born Again Believers are the Priests offering the great sacrifice to God by remembering and believing what the Great Priest Jesus has done at the Cross by His Own Blood and His Body.( Read 1 Peter 2:5-9)

    We give thanks to Lord Jesus, the Great Savior, everyday, every moment!

    Eliyahu
     
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  15. Campion

    Campion Member

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    If you eat his SYMBOLIC FLESH and drink his SYMBOLIC BLOOD your religion is SYMBOLIC cannibalism.


    Tell me how SYMBOLIC CANNIBALISM is permissible given your interpretation above.
     
  16. Campion

    Campion Member

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    "Do this" is a command for what He instituted to be repeated. We know this because it is described being done in the New Testament AFTER the actual Last Supper.

    Acts 2:46 "Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts..."

    1 Corinthians 10:16 "The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?"

    1 Corinthians 11:29 "For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself."
     
  17. Campion

    Campion Member

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    Do you think this command was given to everyone? If I walked into your church one Sunday, would they let me get up and offer the Eucharist?


    First, the hypostatic union is not a theory. It is the core dogma upon which the Christian religion is based.

    Secondly, I gave it to you previously. In 1 Cor 11:27, St. Paul says, "Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, OR drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body AND of the blood of the Lord."

    Christ cannot be divided into separate parts, quantities and portions. (This is the hypostatic union.)


    Can you demonstrate anywhere in the Scriptures where eating a body (not some other “object” / red herring) was a metaphor for something other than that.
     
    #97 Campion, Mar 29, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2022
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Bad translation.
    ". . . The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. . . ."
    And the word interpreted "communion" meaning fellowship of the believers they being the body of Christ being His church.
    So it is not as you believe.
     
  19. Campion

    Campion Member

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    Sorry, but it's not as you believe.

    "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?"

    Communion = κοινωνία = fellowship, association, community, communion, joint participation, intercourse, intimacy

    Source

    Trying to have fellowship, association, community, communion, participation, intercourse and intimacy with a symbol is idolatry.
     
    #99 Campion, Mar 29, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2022
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Roman Catholic Mass at Calvin's Church in Geneva?

    Calvinism getting back to it's roots. :Biggrin


     
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