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Featured How Christ Was "Made Sin"

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by KenH, Feb 19, 2023.

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  1. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    2 Cor 5:2 for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him.
    Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    Phil 3:8-11 yes, indeed, and I count all things to be loss, because of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, because of whom of the all things I suffered loss, and do count them to be refuse, that Christ I may gain, and be found in him, not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through faith of Christ [insert Gal 3:2] -- the righteousness that is of God by the faith, to know him, and the power of his rising again, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being conformed to his death, if anyhow I may attain to the rising again of the dead.

    Let's flipflop a work of faith,
     
    #21 percho, Feb 20, 2023
  2. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Romans 4:6-8 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, saying,

    Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
    And whose sins are covered.
    Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

    (emphasis mine)


    Matthew 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

    Matthew 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

    Matthew 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

    Matthew 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me.

    (emphasis mine)
     
    #22 KenH, Feb 21, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2023
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  3. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    How can it be heresy when the verse says it?
     
    #23 George Antonios, Feb 21, 2023
  4. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying that you think that God became an actual sinner?
     
    #24 KenH, Feb 21, 2023
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Jesus was the Lamb of God, thus God's sin offering. Full Stop.

    Pay no attention to those who claim Jesus was not sinless, but was sin, when He died as the Lamb of God without blemish.
     
    #25 Van, Feb 21, 2023
  6. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Are you rubbing your hands in hope of your heresy radar lighting up?

    I said only what the verse said. He hath made him to be sin for us.

    Nothing more, nothing less.

    I don't add to the word of God the word "offering", I don't change the word of God to "sinner".
     
    #26 George Antonios, Feb 21, 2023
  7. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Nope. Just trying to see if you would clarify your rather cryptic comment.

    JonC wrote: "I know nobody here takes the verse as Christ being made literal sin (which would be a heresy)."

    You wrote in reply: "How can it be heresy when the verse says it?"

    Thus, it sounds like you are disagreeing with JonC's statement, that you are saying that you think Christ was not made sin by imputation, but became literal sin(or a literal sinner).
     
    #27 KenH, Feb 21, 2023
  8. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    When it comes to such dreadful topics, all I am sure of is what the verse says: Christ was made sin for us.
    I know that, in the context of the cross, the Lord likened his body to Moses' serpent on the pole and to a worm.
     
    #28 George Antonios, Feb 21, 2023
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Thank you for the verses. I think I may not have been clear enough with my stayements (my fault, not yours).

    What I am saying is that there are no examples of "sin" meaning some type of imputed exchange.

    Likewise, the "sin debt" you speak of is not found in the text of Scripture.

    I don't mean "transgression". I know that when we sin we do so against God and that the wages of sin is death. I am talking about the fact that the idea of a "sin debt" as used by many (an outstanding balance that must be paid) is not in the Bible.
     
    #29 JonC, Feb 21, 2023
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It is not changing the Word of God to translate the word "sin offering". That is the definition of the word as translated over 100 times in the OT.

    I am not sure that believing Christ was made an evil that is disobedient or in rebellion to God (sin) is a legitimate Christian view. I do not think Christ "missed the mark", falling short of righteousness.

    I believe the opposite is not only true but necessary (it is the "spotless lamb" that's given as a sin offering - not the imperfect one.
     
    #30 JonC, Feb 21, 2023
  11. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    There is no "offering" in the verse.

    2Co 5:21 τον γαρ μη γνοντα αμαρτιαν υπερ ημων αμαρτιαν εποιησεν ινα ημεις γινωμεθα δικαιοσυνη θεου εν αυτω

    Pulpit Commentary: "Many have understood the word "sin" in the sense of sin offering (Le Gal_5:9, LXX.); but that is a precarious application of the word, which is not justified by any other passage in the New Testament. We cannot, as Dean Plumptre says, get beyond the simple statement, which St. Paul is content to leave in its unexplicable mystery,"

    Jamieson, Faussett, Brown: "not a sin offering, which would destroy the antithesis to “righteousness,” and would make “sin” be used in different senses in the same sentence:"

    Indeed, this is not unlike being made a curse for us (Gal.3:13). There is no "curse offering" escape there.

    Cambridge Bible: "The word sin has been variously explained as a sin-offering, a sinner, and so on. But it is best to take the word in its literal acceptation. He made Him to be sin,"

    The whole "sin offering" goes back to Ambrosiaster who argued that in view of the fact that he was made an offering for sins, it is not wrong for him to be said to have been made “sin,” because in the law the sacrifice which was offered for sins used to be called a “sin.”
    Ambrosiaster's justification of the word "sin" became an unwarranted alternate translation with time.

    The text said "sin" not "sin offering". The theology will have to match the text, not vice-versa.
     
    #31 George Antonios, Feb 21, 2023
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You are wrong on this one.

    The word "sin" can mean "sin" (an evil, disobedient act against God) or "sin offering".

    The reason for translating the word "sin offering" is that many do not realize the word means "sin offering".

    It is not adding to the passage but spelling out the definition of the word to prevent error (to help people understand the word is not being used to mean "sin" as "disobedience to God").

    The KJV itself dies this over 100 times in the OT (with the Hebrew word for sin). They were not wrong to do that. The LXX does as well, so we know it was common during Paul's day to consider the Greek word as "sin" (as evil) and "sin offering".

    Maybe a footnote to clarify that "sin" meas "sin offering" would be sufficient, but the translators job is to convey the meaning of the text, not just pick one word to substitute for one word. And too many wouldn't read the footnotes (which would lead to poor theology).

    Most who are ignorant of the meaning of "sin" here pretend the word means something hidden in the text (they add theology to explain away what they misdefined).
     
    #32 JonC, Feb 21, 2023
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I need to add something (I am guilty of not fully reading your post).

    I'm not sure if you are aware, but the LXX uses the word αμαρτιαν to mean "sin offering" when translating the OT. This means Paul (and more importantly his audience) would have understood that αμαρτιαν means "sin offering".

    Also important is the fact that the Hebrew uses the same word for "sinful act" and "sin offering".

    What is of most importance is the fact that those who reject the definition "sin offering" have only two choices - add theology to the text to explain away the meaning or commit blasphemy.

    Do you believe that Jesus was literally made to be disobedient to God?

    Or do you believe "sin" means something other than the definitions of the word?
     
    #33 JonC, Feb 21, 2023
  14. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it is. I provided verses to prove it.
     
    #34 KenH, Feb 21, 2023
  15. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Yes, there is. I provided a passage to prove it.
     
    #35 KenH, Feb 21, 2023
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, it isn't. But I understand why you read it there.

    What I mean by "sin debt" is a debt that God must collect because of our sins. The passages did refer to debts, and also transgressions against God that needed forgiveness.

    I'm not sure but I think we may be talking past one another here rather than disagreeing.
     
    #36 JonC, Feb 21, 2023
  17. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it is.
     
    #37 KenH, Feb 21, 2023
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Again, I think we are talking past one another (probably my poorly worded posts, not yours).

    I am talking about imputing sins not committed by another (I don't mean imputing or not imputing sins to the sinner).
     
    #38 JonC, Feb 21, 2023
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No it isn't. :p
     
    #39 JonC, Feb 21, 2023
  20. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying that you don't think that the sins of God's elect were imputed to Christ? If not, how do you think they were placed on Christ?
     
    #40 KenH, Feb 21, 2023
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