Featured What happened to Adam and Eve when they sinned?

Wrong. The Bible says that Eve was deceived and committed transgression (committing transgression is sin [cf. 1 John 3:4]). Both of these things happened before Adam sinned:

1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Adam did not deceive Eve. God did not deceive Eve. The serpent deceived Eve, and it did so before either Eve or Adam sinned:

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The Bible teaches that supernatural sinfulness (when the serpent deceived Eve) preceded human sinfulness.

 

Is sin self-destructive?

Sin + God = destruction.

Sin has no self-contained mechanism that makes sin what it is, a transgression of the law of God and Offence to His Perfect Character.

Sin is a violation committed against a Trice-Holy God, in the breaking of His Universal Moral Law.

When sin is committed against God, in the breaking His law, God's law of, "you reap what you sow", is exacted and generates the operation of Punishment for that infraction, immediately to some extent and is Eternal in its ultimate consequences.

To say, "sin self-destructive", is to say, "sin has the existence of a similar Power and Holiness of God, and the Universal Law of God, and The Activity of God in Punishing and Judging sin, engineered within itself, internally.

The statement "sin self-destructive", by Offending itself, violating it's own rules, and that it has a self-generating power of Judgment, that causes sin to be self-destructive, and level Punishment against itself, is simply a denial of the existence of God.

To say that God is not Omnipresent and His law Universal is another way to say that, but you won't find it in the text.

"The origin of sin’s destruction is in the act of sin and the results of sin is in the Hands of an Angry God.

God hates sin.

God judges sin.

To say, "sin judges itself", is to say, "sin’s destruction is in the act of sin itself, not in God’s destructive response to sin", but there is not a word of truth to it.

So, now we have Adam and Eve, "by their own judgement", somehow assessing the act of sin as somehow offensive to something in some way, to have them make a determination of it's requirement for being met out with Punishment, and then bring Judgment on themselves?

They were "condemned in their own" view and perception, as the already exacted results of their sin, maybe.

They didn't self-judge themselves any more than sin self-judge itself.

So, now we have two new false teachings, "sin is self-destructive" and "sinner's self-judge themselves".

We are not doing too good, depending on who's side you're on, I guess.

So, are we going to say "God is not Omnipresent" and "God Judging and Punishment of sin is dependent and limited to an official convening session of "the tribunal of God"?

How about, we need the Pre-Existant Incarnate Presence of God the Son, Jesus, "the Voice of the Lord", too?

Calvin asked if, "the sense of shame, which rises spontaneously, a sure token of guilt?”

The guilt of sin results in the sense of shame, because of it's bearing on their consciousnesses. Who put that conscious there? God.

Adam and Eve were capable of having the guilt of sin and the shame of their sin, as a result of their guilt, registering in their cognisant awareness.

The guilt of their sin and resulting shame was the result of The Activity of God's Punishment of the Acts of Sin, for Offending Him, by disobedience to His Command.

For Adam and Eve to have a conscience awareness of their sin was, then, The Activity of God.

These attempts to divorce God from His narrative and Universe, may be somehow an attempt at ascent, but are actually an act of descent.

Any act of destruction on Adam and Eve was brought about externally, from a source outside themselves, and could never be considered as an exclusive operation of their being, internally.

Because God is. God's law is. And because God Judges sin against His law.

Nice attempt at denying the Omnipresent God of the Universe, but you can't preach any of this, "in Spirit and truth", so don't bring your guns to town.

Incorrect, in the very act of stating it.

Now, we're coming upon something. They disobeyed their Creator that Exists and He knew about it, and fact that they were disobeying Him and His law.

Then, what is He going to do about it?

Wrong. They were in no position and had no dethroning power, within themselves.

Wrong again, whatever "dehumanized" is supposed to mean.

Nope. Their dishonor and awareness of being ashamed were the result of their sin, by an Activity of God, not that their sin had any ability on its own, or that they had some special dishonoring talents apart from God's Judgment.

Wickedness does what? Now, wickedness is doing the dethroning, instead of their having some propensity for dishonoring themselves.

And this dethroning is "from the condition of being human" meaning what?

What and who is this 'man' who was "unable to rise to a Divine condition"?

Where is a man that has "goodness" to abandon? Only, Adam in the garden, who was righteous and innocent, under the Covenant of Works?

When can we see an example of where a man "ceased to be human" and "sinks to the level of being an animal?

Disruption was exacted on them, not from within themselves.

The manufacturing of shame, out their own resources, by Fiat Creation, was not on their resume.

This is defining a sin, not the resulting effect of sin.

I don't know about you, but I believe that I would also have to come up with some Disappointment in myself, from somewhere, if I got caught fostering this kind of gobbledygook.[/QUOTE]

 

As the result and not the cause.

Because, God judged their sin, didn't He?

Adam was without sin and had the capability for his actions to "be oriented towards loving and obeying God", but he was mutable, and when he exercised his mutability, he plunged himself and the entire human race in a state of Total Depravity, not just some lighthearted disordering of their souls.

Our Totally Depraved of our souls requires us to sin and come up with ideas like, "Sin requires to disorder our souls". Acting as if it is us that has the power to 'disorder our souls", rather than, our soul is already disordered to the extent of being Totally Depraved and is only capable of sin, apart from God.

The soul sins because it is a sinner, so it is the other way around.

Disobedience to God comes from the state of our soul is in, to start with, not the reverse, unless the only one this is talking about is Adam, in Innocence.

Ah. That's why God Judges sin. That's what happened on all of this. There is a God and He was offended and Acted in Punishment toward the sinner.

There you go.

To propose that sin causes destruction, in and of itself, apart from The Existence and Activity of God, in bringing destruction, as a result of the breaking of His Commandments, is serious.

The sinner's soul is engineered exclusively to sin, but sin does not posses a capability to "work" and produce anything, without the Operation of the Providence of God associated with it.

It could be called an attempt to deny the Existence of God.

What are we to make of this "success" story?

The dehumanization of humanity.

How are humans supposed to be 'humanized' to start with?

Of course, not. God has always been and always will be Active and plunging sinners into destruction and misery for sinning against Him is always one thing He is Active about.

How about an accusation of mass-producing nonsense, then? Better?

All harmful effects of sin are Acts of God's Sovereign Judgment and Punishment of sin, because sin is not in charge of it's own effects.

Well, it's about time you changed your position, from "sin is self-destructive", to asking now if "sin is not destructive", leaving out the lie about sin having some "self" producing, "self" generating and "self" Offending, "self" Judging, and "self" Punishing", potentiality.

Strong work.

 

What happened to Adam and Eve
when they sinned?

Adapted from The Body of Doctrinal Divinity, by John Gill,
Book III,
Chapter 13, "Of the Punishment of Sin."


1a. Adam's Punishment inward, in his soul,

1a1. Adam Lost the Image of God upon his soul. "all have sinned and come short", or "are deprived of the glory of God"; that is, of the image of God, in which his glory on man lay; one principal part of which image was righteousness and holiness. This man is stripped of, and is become unrighteous; "There is none righteous, no not one" (Romans 3:10, 23)...

1a2. Adam Lost the Freedom of Will, and of power to do good. Man has not lost the natural liberty of his will to things natural; but the moral liberty of his will to things moral; his will is not free to that which is good, only to that which is evil; and that liberty is no other than bondage. Man's free will is a slave to his lusts; he is a home-born slave (Jeremiah 2:14)...

1a3. Adam Lost Knowledge of divine things; his understanding is darkened with respect to them; he is darkness itself; he has lost his knowledge by sinning, instead of gaining more; "There is none that understandeth, and seeks after God, and the knowledge of him. Spiritual things men cannot discern; to do good they have no knowledge; they know not, nor will they understand...

1a4. Adam Lost communion with God. Adam sinned, and was drove out of paradise, and was deprived of communion with God through the creatures; and all his sons are alienated from a life of fellowship with him: their sins separate between God and them; and, indeed, what communion can there be between light and darkness, righteousness and unrighteousness? ...

1a5. Adam Lost his Hope in God. In being destitute of hope, and subject to horror and black despair. The sinful soul of man is hopeless and helpless: men live without real hope of future happiness, and without God in the world; if their consciences are not lulled asleep, they are continually accusing of sin; the arrows of the Almighty stick in them; the poison of his wrath drinks up their spirits; and his terrors set themselves in array against them: having no view of pardon, peace, and righteousness by another, there is nothing but a fearful looking for of judgement; indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, are due to every soul of man that does evil, and to which he is liable; unless the grace of God prevents.

1b. The Outward Punishments of Adam and his body.

1b1. Adam Lost his Immortality of the body. Adam's body was gifted with immortality; but sinning, he was stripped of it and became mortal, and so all his posterity are; which arises not from the constitution of their nature, and the appointment of God, barely, but from sin; "The body is dead", or is become mortal, "because of sin" (Romans 8:10),..

1b2. Adam Lost the Ease of "dressing the garden" and received in exchange: Labour of body, with toil, fatigue, and weariness, which is another penal effect of sin. Though Adam dressed the garden of Eden, in his state of innocence, it was done without toil and fatigue; but when he had sinned, the earth was cursed for his sake, and brought forth thorns and thistles; and he was doomed to labour in it, to dig in it, to weed and purge it, to cultivate and manure it; and thereby to get and eat his bread in sorrow, and in the sweat of his brow...

1b3. Adam Lost the Dominion over the creatures is another sort of punishment of sin. Adam had a grant of dominion over all the creatures, and these were in subjection to him. But by sin man has lost his power over them...

1b4. Adam Lost Peace. The many distresses in person, in family, and in estate, are the penal effects of sin; the curses of the law, for the transgressions of it, come upon men, and on what they have; in the city, and in the field; in basket, and in store; in the fruit of their body, and of their land; in the increase of their kine and flocks of sheep; when these are affected, and there is a failure in them, it is for sin (Deuteronomy 28:16, 20)...

1b5. Adam Lost Providential Protection. Public calamities are to be considered in this light, as punishments of sin; as the drowning of the old world; the burning of Sodom and Gomorrah; the captivities of the Jews; the destruction of other nations and cities; the devastations made by wars, famines, pestilences, earthquakes, &c.

1b6. Adam Lost his life. Last of all, as to outward temporal punishment, corporal death, which is the disunion of soul and body, is the just "wages" and demerit of sin; it was threatened in case of it, and it is inflicted for it; it came upon Adam, and it comes upon all his posterity; and sin is the cause of it; "The sting of death is sin"...

 

Every act of sin involves the sinner exchanging ... his/her ultimate source of worship, from God to Satan, actually, yes.

The soul is disordered to the extent of Total Depravity in the lost sinner, which gives them the capability of sinning, only and exclusively.

The soul is in a state of 'disorder', first, then it commits sin.

In theory, but that properly ordered soul would also have to be immutable, which is an incommunicable Attribute of God, and would have to make them God (which is impossible, of course.)

Adam was the only one who had a 'properly ordered soul' and yet he did eventually sin, owing to his nature being mutable and, therefore, capable of sinning.

An act of sin is an act. That act breaks God's law and causes God to be offended.

As an offended God, God then acts in Judgment, Punishment, and to the greatest extent, God's Wrath.

"are you saying that every act of sin is also an act of wrath"

Every act of sin meets with the Activity of God in Judgment, Punishment, and to the greatest extent, God's Wrath, but those are two separate acts.

The two are not self-executing or combined within the act of sin, alone, as if the act of Wrath is also contained within the reality of sin, and that both take place at one time, in that one first act of sin.

There are two separate acts, the act of sin as the cause and the Activity of God in His Divine Providence, in Punishment of that sin, as a result.

"That Adam and Eve eating the fruit in the garden was an act of God's wrath"

There are two separate acts, although they are related in their aspects of cause and effect. The act of sin is the cause and the Activity of God in Punishing sin is the effect.

God can never be attributed as the cause of sin and the act of God's Wrath is the effect of that sin.

 

The destructive things that Adam experienced Inwardly in his soul and Outwardly in his body, were all the result of The Activity of God in Punishing Adam's sin.

First, sin is not self-punishing, but is only the act of breaking God's law.

Second, God judges sin, in the Punishments he exacts.

Sin, in and of itself, is a breaking or transgression of the law of God.

That act of sin is a cause.

The act of destruction is subsequent to the initial sin and is the result of the act of sin.

The soul is already in ruin and misery and has only the ability to sin, exclusively.

The ruin and misery of the soul causes the act of sin.

In the overall 'nature' of the act of sin as the cause, it may be said to be inclusive of its destruction, as a result.

That is that the two separate aspects of the act of sin, as the cause, and the act of destruction, as the effect, are spoken of using the one overall nature of both processes of cause and effect, when it is said, "sin is destructive in its nature."

Correct.

The wicked in hell, by their sin as the cause, are responsible for the result of their sin, which is the effect of their sin.

Their sins of lust as the cause, are responsible for the result of their sins of lust, which is torment, as the effect of their sin.

“The wicked in hell are", responsible for the result of their sins, caused in their wickedness, which is hell's torment, as sin's effect.

"their own tormentors, their lusts are their tormentors".

The wicked, when they sin as the cause, are responsible for the result of their sins, caused in their wickedness, which is hell's torment, as sin's effect.

“The wicked in hell" are responsible for the effect of
"their own" sins, as the cause, for their "torment", which is the result.

“The wicked in hell" are responsible for "their lusts" as the cause, with the effect being "tormented".

 

You and Gill do not agree anymore than black agrees with white.

Adam did not do anything "destructive to himself," and Gill nowhere says anything like he did.

What Gill said, essentially, is:

 

By a denial of the existence of God that is offended and His Law, which is broken, and the Justice of God in the Act of Punishment.

They became dead by the Judgment of God in punishing their specific sin, prior to the Personal Appearance of Jesus Who brought about a formal tribunal of General Judgment, in which He Legislated General Pronouncements and leveled them against the offending parties.

Nope.

Nope. That an attempt at the usurptation of the Existence of God, His Law, and Divine Providence in the execution of Justice in the Punishment of sin, which is when the 'destruction' is realized, by someone or something.

Sin doesn't have its own self-actualizing prototype and counterfeit of God and His Law, and Divine Providence alive inside of it.

Sin is simply the breaking of God's Law, alone, as an act.

Not on your life. See above.

As deceptively put as all the "themselves" sound that could be misinterpreted as an answer to "who is responsible for their sin?", I don't buy any of the concept of them exacting the Act of Punishment upon themselves. The Punishment of sin is an Activity of God.

Sin is inherently the act of breaking God's Law, alone. To attribute the Act of Punishing sin to something other than God is an attempt at His usurptation by someone or something.

Sin is the breaking of God's Law and has no further mechanism by which sin "brings" or produces anything, in and of itself.

Retarded. No.

Incorrect.

Bazaar off.

Adam sinned in the act of eating the fruit.

God exists and has established a Universal Law.

Those two have to be in existence prior to God's Universal Law being broken by an act which then is called sin.

Sin is breaking of God's Law.

Since, God and His Law exists, God reacts to this breaking of the law, in Punishment and Adam was responsible for God having to respond, but had no ability in himself, or the act of sin had no ability in itself, to bring by the response, which is the Activity of God.

What are you trying to invent when you say "disordering". What is supposed to presumably try to say it means?

 

If you are talking about "exchanging" the object of their Worship, then, yes.

 

What does it do to call something a disruption or a state of confusion, if you are?

They are confused and changing, or disrupting, their object of Worship, but why call an exchange an exchange?

Are you asking if sinning causes an additional disruption in the "ordering" of
their soul, or the 'ordering' in nature, or some added breach inflicted on their soul, or nature, that makes them more abnormal than they had been, as well as it being a sin against God?

 

Absolutely, sin alone, apart from God's wrath, is destructive at it's very core. Go back to OT times:

1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what is the profit of circumcision?
2 Much every way: first of all, that they were intrusted with the oracles of God. Ro 3

...and consider the truth within God's closing statement to Jonah:

11 and should not I have regard for Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle? Jonah 4