Featured Non-Calvinist Help- Questions

MLJ was not a Puritan, rather he was a Calvinist Methodist… think about that! Blending Calvinist doctrines to Methodist practice. My Welsh family mostly went to and identified with the Calvinist Methodists of the day.

 

You used the terms wisely or foolishly and I agree with that. Man in his free will can make wise or foolish choices. But that is the point you seem to be missing, they can make those choices. If one wants to humble themselves before God how does that equate to boasting. Now when the calvinist says they were chosen before the foundation of the world then that gives them reason to boast as they must have been special in God's eye or He would not have picked them.

As for Pelagius, when you have to depend upon your enemy to say what you were like then the information does become suspect. He seems to be the boogeyman of calvinism just as free will seems to be. It's a handy name to haul out to attach to anyone you disagree with.

Nice to see that Owen and Edward’s had some understanding of free will.

How do we know that? That as you say is just a calvinist invention. Actually we see just the opposite. God desires all to be saved and come to a knowledge of Him and the Holy Spirit convicts the whole world. It is not a matter of circumstance it is a matter of how they respond to the Holy Spirit’s conviction. Each person has the ability and opportunity to accept or reject God.

You seem surprised that I would say that a person exercising their free will to reject salvation is the greatest sin. That concept is all through the bible.
Now what I should have included is that for a calvinist that is an irrational statement. Remember under calvinism all man’s choices are determined by God, no free will allowed. So yes calvinist do seem to miss that bit of logic.

You have just pointed out one of the many things calvinist that are illogical. Absolute divine determinism is absolute divine determinism unless you have a different meaning for the words. Which is another problem I see in calvinism, they like to put their own special meaning on words.
You once called yourself a one point calvinist, possiblely in jest, but even on this board it seems those that hold to calvinism can not agree on what being a calvinist means.

God is sovereign and if He said I was going to be in place X on day X then I would be there. Just as He foretold the crucifixion. But what calvinist’s seem to forget is that God is sovereign and He has given man a free will and He is still sovereign.

 

Indeed! MLJ headed an annual conference that took place at Westminster Chapel I think from 1959 through 1978. It was this group that played a huge part in the rediscovery of English Puritan writings which led to the publishing of paperback Puritan works and then the later reformed resurgence in the U.S.

MLJ said that Calvinism without Methodism tended to become cold and lifeless. I have his book "The Puritans" and it's one of my most valued books. In that book MLJ spends a lot of time praising Richard Baxter and Charles Wesley, and it's true that MLJ seemed to have no problem with making use theologians who didn't agree with him on all points. If more people listened to MLJ this site would be less toxic for one thing.

 

The common ground is scripture. When calvinist insist that black is white with regard to scripture where do you find common ground. Have you seen any attempt from calvinists to find common ground? No, just the opposite. Look at the many terms that have been used by calvinist's when referring to me.

Actually just look at your post. How is my pointing someone back to scripture alienating my fellow Christian brothers? As I have said more than once it is calvinnism not calvinists that I disagree with. Calvinism is a man-made philosophy that comes from pagan roots, that is historical fact. Should I just to ignore that, no.

So I am sorry that you feel I am alienating anyone by pointing out what I see as error but what is the alternative?

 

It doesn't. How many times do I have to say that. But with a view of free will that has the individual totally uncoerced and able to neutrally and correctly evaluate the information on an equal basis with all others - the determining factor in such an informed decision is the result of your wise choice. A Calvinist on the other hand knows there is more to it than that. Like in Philippians ch. 3 where Paul talks about "being apprehended" by Christ. I'm just saying that if the decision to be saved is all of you then it's all of you. I'm not saying that you then don't come humbly - just that your coming humbly was totally a result of your proper and wise decision Is not that what you are saying?

Because we see it and experience it. Saul, a person who hates Christians suddenly does an about face and becomes the Apostle Paul. A guy sits in church 20 years and one day at a sermon starts crying and becomes a Christian. A guy from an ignorant and rough background gets saved while another man goes all the way through Bible college without ever understanding a thing about salvation. Things happen all the time that cannot be explained simply by an informed free will capable of making a contrary decision. And it's all through scripture. You cannot reduce it to a response to a set of proposals that everyone has equal access to.

Of course things like that will have different meanings. Like "free will" or "total depravity". Why would you only blame Calvinism for this if all the theologies have multiple views on all these subjects.

I am surprised that modern Calvinists who are extreme in their concept of divine meticulous determinism have apparently not read these things written by the most famous Calvinists. I am thankful I spent years reading Puritan sermons and teachings before being dragged into the Calvinism debates that the modern kids were engaged in.

It is true that there is not one point of the TULIP that I would not want to modify or at least comment on before signing off on it. Sproul himself modified 3 of the points. TULIP is not the gospel and I think it is unfortunate that it has come to represent Calvinism. When I look at different systems of theology Calvinism looks pretty good and well thought out. But I have no problem with other Christians who reject it and view them as true fellow believers.

 

How open minded is it to say just trust the calvinist point of view and ignore what the root is? If a person actually checked out the basis of that view and still held to it then that is their choice but to say just ignore the root is foolish.

My only reason in posting on here is so that people will trust the actual inspired word of God. When people cherry pick verses to support their view and ignore context then they can make the bible support just about anything they want. We see this in the cults and health and wealth preachers and rightly condemn it. When someone in a mainline christian tradition does it are we supposed to overlook it?

We are told to contend for the faith, that is what I attempt to do. I am not asking people to trust in what I say but rather to trust in what the Holy Spirit said in the word of God.

 

You joined as a Baptist? I guess you learn something new every day.

 

The simple alternative is to quit vilification toward peoples beliefs and simply state your understanding and allow it to sink in. Again I believe in reaching collaboration where you can and agree to disagree when we reach an impasse. That way you will partner with other Christian believers vs splitting into fractions. I’m certain and will tell you that @Kentuckyredneck, he wasn’t always a Monergistic believer… that he was raised one way, questioned that movement and eventually evolved into his present beliefs. I also have had many many modifications in my beliefs history… including agnostic atheist (where I truly considered life as a professional criminal, a low point in my life) to bouncing around from Roman Catholic, to Presbyterian & Covenantal to exploring Methodist beliefs to Baptists… what a journey but one where I learned from each experience. And you are right, they all have their zealots & there genuine Christian believers… so look for the genuine believers and accept them in spite of your perceived discrepancies. I don’t think that anybody will tell you that their beliefs are 100% correct but it’s the complete faith & belief in God the Father, the Son & the Holy Spirit that earmarks us as Christians, don’t you agree?

The alternative brother is to slide into secularism and that can’t be the spiritual legacy we want to lead our children & grandchildren into. I will tell you that my wife, who was raised Dutch Reformed (a belief system very predominant in North Jersey and New York is now on life support) Anyway, my wife tells me they were strict Calvinists… so strict that people began looking for alternatives and the Dutch Reformed church crumbled. She recently told me that she sees value in reading Catholic authors. Well that’s where she is right now, that’s intellectual curiosity. Am I going to vilify her for that? Bottom line, she is committed to Christ as her Lord & Savior… so we are moving in the right direction.

 

Not much surprises me any more. But something like this:

Tell me if I'm misunderstanding you but are you referring to Paul, even after he was converted, the one who wrote most of the New Testament?

 

Paul was a disciple of Christ who most certainly taught Christ as Lord & Savior, so to extract his contributions to the Christian movement is impossible to do.

 

How many times must I repeat, The Holy Spirit convicts before you understand that? God has provided all the information and holds man responsible for how they handle it. But man still has to decide what they will do with the information. You seem to think that if man actually has a free will then he has made himself sovereign over his salvation. Strange that the bible is clear that that is actually what God expects man to do. Eph 1:13, Rom 1:16, Joh 3:18 God saves those that trust in His son but that is the condition, they must believe God will not do it for them. So for the calvinist to insist that man doing what God requires somehow makes man sovereign is just a foolish argument.
I must ask where do you get this silly idea that man freely believing in God means they save themselves?

Man has a God given free will, to say that he does not goes against scripture. Even your examples show mans free will. It is exactly what you claim it is not, an informed free will capable of making a contrary decision.
Do you think that God was mistaken when He said He desires all to be saved, I don't. But I also do not believe that God will force man to believe in Him. Even Paul had to make the choice to trust in Christ, Paul had to change his mind as to the reality of who Christ was. Does God choose certain people for service, yes but that is the exception not the rule.
God provides the means to know Him but He does not force people to trust in Him.

Because we are discussing calvinism are we not. Calvinists have attached their own meaning to both "free will" and "total depravity" have they not?

That is the point I have been truing to make, neither calvinism or arminianism is not the gospel. That is why I do not hold to either one. To my mind all these man-made theologies need to be thrown on the trash heap and just trust what the bible says in clear language. I have a number of commentaries and books by various authors but I do not use them to inform be of my faith.
I was taught long ago that the bible is it's own best commentary and that has proven to be true.

 

Are you reading a different bible than the rest of us have? Where do you get your ideas from because they are not scriptural.

 

I would enjoy civil discourse with fellow Christians even those that view the way to salvation differently that I do. While you and KY have moved around in your faith journey I have always been a Baptist. My bedrock is scripture, so while I will read commentaries that present various views I do not use them to inform my faith.

None of us has theology all figured out. We will continue to grow until the day we are with Christ. There are many genuine believers on this board and we all hold strong views. We all, by times, can be a bit harsh but then again family members do tend to be harder on each other than they are to strangers. At the end of the day we are still family.

We all have challenges in our lives, you it seems more that most, my prayers for you and your wife that God will strengthen you both.

 

True, but you are speaking of two things here. Having all the information is not conviction. Conviction is supernatural power and is not an equal substance given to everyone at all times. Scripture is clear on that, whether talking about the denseness of the natural man, or of Satan snatching away the word, or of Jews being blinded while gentiles are brought in and so on. We observe it in times of revival and mass evangelistic successes and then times of coldness - with the information being available all the time.

Now, my own view is that God is sovereign in the spreading of the information (the gospel message) and sovereign in the enlightening by the Spirit. Everyone does not get an equal chance at this. But I do think that there is judicial activity going on during this process and it is possible to resist the grace you are given to the point of messing it up for yourself. And I think that strict Calvinism overlooks that. That is why I took notice of what all the great Calvinist preachers seemed to actually preach - "Don't trifle with the conviction you feel or the calling you experience because it may be withdrawn, leaving you with no ability to repent on your own. (Because you will not want to, not because it would be physically impossible.)

There is a branch of Calvinism that teaches that to the non elect, God has nothing to say, the gospel is not for them, they have to part in any of the means of salvation, Christ did not die for them anyway. I do not believe that. I believe, as Owen taught, that you have the expressed promise of God that regardless of any theology, if you come to Christ you have God's promise to save you. If you desire to come it has come from a conviction or a call from God and it is possible for you to mess that up. (The fact that it will turn out later that you were not elect makes no difference here. The fact that if you do come to Christ it means the call to you was "effectual" or the "I" in TULIP means nothing either.) But it does mean that more was going on than you simply evaluating the claims of the gospel and then taking a decision. Scripture does not support that.

 

Keep it coming. I reported you to the moderators but in case I didn't fully articulate what you are doing - keep going.

 

Strange that the bible says God will hold man responsible for the information they have and that the gospel is the power of God for conviction. But what do we see, men reject the conviction of the gospel and deny God creation. Well it is obvious that having all the words does not convict all people and just as obvious those that trust in God were convicted by the information that they had or they would not have trusted in Him would they. No one is saying that all people are under the same conviction all the time but we do know that all men are at some point convicted of their sin or you have to say the Holy Spirit was being disingenuous and that God really did not mean what He said re a being saved.
I ask you Dave, do you have the same religious fervor all the time? If not why not? Does that mean that God does not care if you are trusting in Him at those times?

God is sovereign and He will accomplish all that He intends to do. He will draw all men to Himself through various means and those that trust in Him will be saved, and those that trifle with the conviction they are feel or the calling they experience will be lost. Not because God did not want them to be saved but because they rejected the offer gift.

Dave why do you have to resort to the calvinist buzz words to say what the bible clearly says? God draws all men not just some. The Holy Spirit convicts the whole world. The gospel is the power of God for salvation. All are called in one way or another and life shows that many do resist and reject God. There are no special pre-selected ones as calvinism seems to thing. Those that freely trust in Christ Jesus are called the elect because they are in Him. What is going on is that God has provided all the necessary information and given the ability to evaluate that information and the free will to choose how to respond to the information.

 

That is actually a good, working definition of sovereignty as a Calvinist would describe it.

Your problem is that you won't deal with the fact that indeed everyone is not treated the same. You cling to the concept because of an honest attempt I think to make sure God cannot be charged with unfairness. But that is not what we observe. The ancient Israelites were taken, chosen, separated out and vigorously trained by God to be his people. At the same time there were other groups wiped out for their sin, even though they were no worse than the Israelites. Yes, everyone has an innate sense of right and wrong, and creation shows us that there is a God, but to try to make that into an equal chance for everyone to believe the gospel is silly. Some people like Paul were struck down by Jesus and blinded while others quietly lived out their lives with no hint that they were on the road to perdition. This would be unfair if we were all neutral before God but is it fair if we are all truly guilty and only suffer what we deserve - that God doesn't rescue all of us equally. You know, you get offended if I say that you would have a right to boast if we were all given an equal chance and you chose wisely - yet you turn around and say that a Calvinist, who thinks it's an amazing thing that he would be rescued by by God when others no worse than him were not - is somehow guilty of thinking highly of himself because of an undeserved special blessing?

 

actually, it is a testimony to the goodness and love of God.

We all deserve hell. Again, we all deserve hell

God chooses to save some, and I am glad that he does

if God does not elect us to salvation then no one would be saved

 

What about passages which teach that “salvation is not by the will of man, but of God who shows mercy”

 

Not even

it’s very humbling and you see the wickedness of your heart and how close to hell you really were knowing that hell is what you deserve

the fact that God chooses to justify sinners is a very humbling experience