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Once again a Calvinist posts a person disparagement due to a seeming inability to address the topic from scripture.

Returning to topic:

1 Corinthians 9:22 (NASB)
to the weak I became as weak, that I might gain [win] the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Does this verse indicate Paul, rather than God actually saves individuals? Nope The idea is through evangelism, humans aid in bringing people to an understanding of the gospel, acting as ambassadors of Christ. How might we "win" or persuade or contribute to the understanding of lost individuals? Do we talk people into Christ? Nope. God alone puts individuals whose faith He alone credits as righteousness into Christ. But we can till the ground, helping to prepare an individual to receive the gospel, and we can plant, presenting God's word concerning the gospel, and we can reinforce a lost person's consideration of the gospel by fellowship and example.

At the heart of the issue is not anyone claiming to save people, a false claim used to deflect, but whether or not lost people can be receptive to our witness, which of course Calvinism denies, i.e. the "T" of the TULIP.

The context of 1 Corinthians 9:22 indicates Paul's evangelism might contribute to the eternal salvation of some, by tilling the ground, planting and watering. Those who object do not believe evangelism actually contributes to the faith of those of the fields white for harvest.

 

The notion that 'diligent soul-winning' can speed up time is utter cockamamieness.

 

On and on this poster posts absurd falsehoods to misrepresent others.

Did I say "diligent soul winning" can speed up time? Nope

How about hastening the day of the Lord's return? You bet.

The Scriptural answer is yes, diligent evangelism "hastens the day" thus more people per time interval, so the end of the age occurs sooner, resulting in less people not going to heaven.

See 2 Peter 3:12​

 

Utter cockamamieness.

 

On and on, this poster simply denies scripture by calling it "cockamamieness."

How about evangelism "hastening the day of the Lord's return? You bet.

The Scriptural answer is yes, diligent evangelism "hastens the day" thus more people per time interval, so the end of the age occurs sooner, resulting in less people not going to heaven.

See 2 Peter 3:12

 

To: Van's Audience

K. The notion that 'diligent evangelism' can change God's time table and speed up time, " resulting in less people not going to heaven", is utterly wacky.

12 looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, by reason of which the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 2 Pet 3

 

It doesn't change it but I thought that even the most deterministic Calvinist would say that when God ordains something he ordains the means as well as the end result. Your actions, while working into God's plan then are truly important, and real, even if you believe in a strong determinism.

Horatius Bonar and Charles Spurgeon freely used the term "soul winning", and J.C. Ryle said to try to not go to heaven by yourself but take someone with you. But yes, there are some really wacky, unscriptural soul winning techniques that are cringworthy to say the least.

 

Are you in agreement with @Van that 'slacking soul winners' result in MORE people going to hell?

 

Yes. While I have seen some "soul winning" techniques that are less than helpful and while I believe most of us do OK to live a Christian life before our neighbors and just be ready to give an answer to the hope that lieth in us - I think you certainly cause great harm when you don't even do that. I wish you would realize that Calvinistic determinism does not mean that what we do is not real or does not matter. Our failure to obey God and take the great commission seriously causes true and actual harm. The fact that God in his sovereignty knows what is going to occur and has taken all measures to have his ultimate will accomplished in all areas does not change the fact that a lack of diligence in this area is quite harmful.

Anyone. Calvinist or Primitive Baptist, who takes the idea of God's sovereignty to the point of using it as an excuse to believe that what you do doesn't really matter would be far better off to ditch the determinism if they cannot reconcile the two things. Thankfully, many determinists do fine. Most of the great mission movements were started by Calvinists and it was John Knox I believe who said "Give me Scotland or I die!" If anything, a good dose of Calvinism tends to keep "soul winning" real but does not hurt it.

 

Out of every kindred, tongue, people and nation... The reason I am posting this as there is a people called the Sentinelese, they just want to be left alone... Every attempt at contacting them is met with violence, yet according to scripture some will be in Heaven... How did they get there?... How is someone going to win their soul, if they can't make contact?... And you are telling me that the God that created this universe needs our help?... You don't know my God who saves to the uttermost, even the Sentinelese... Brother Glen

Btw... Look up Sentinelese in Wikipedia... These people just want to be left alone!

 

I am telling you that God chose the method of preaching and individual sharing as the method he chose. Whether he "needs" our help is not the question. The question is did God ordain that method or not. I also think that relying on the fact that scripture says that people will be saved out of every kindred, tribe, etc. as proof that people will be saved without the gospel out of a group that meets any attempt to share the gospel with violence is a stretch to say the least. Some of the people that killed Jim Elliot and his colleagues were later saved. But later they heard the gospel, because of the insane persistence of the other missionaries.

 

I grew up in a church that preached that 'on that day' there would be those relegated to hell that would point the finger at me and say "I'm going to hell because you never told me about Jesus Christ".

Do you consider the gist of that as sound doctrine?

 

I did too. And I know how it is to feel guilty that you ate a meal or paid for gas without giving the plan of salvation. But is there not some truth to the fact that you may have some responsibility to share the gospel in the corner of the world where you live? Aren't you on the other thread talking about how works are a necessary part of salvation?

 

Not the same.

 

I don't think that when you become a Christian you have to become a street preacher or a door to door salesman for God. People have different personalities and gifts. But no matter how shy you are, questions will come up and whether you respond or not makes a real and actual difference in someone's life. This is real and a strong belief in determinism need not destroy this. If you are a Calvinist, and you are taking your belief in determinism to the point of avoiding or discounting intentional effort to win people to Christ I am saying that you are not only wrong but that you don't even understand Calvinism.

"Ministers," said Owen, "are seldom honored with success unless they are continually aiming at the conversion of sinners."
That is from Horatius Bonar's work "Words to Winners of Souls".

 

Am I supposed to say "Yes it is". What kind of a reply is that?

 

It's foolish to think God made us all to be evangelists.

11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:

But this is something that's in the power of us all to do:

15 but sanctify in your hearts Christ as Lord: being ready always to give answer to every man that asketh you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, yet with meekness and fear: 1 Pe 3

...that is if you're a mature enough Christian to convey that sort of hope in your life.

No. Perhaps it's too deep for you to grasp. The heart quickened by God is the source of both our works and our faith, and, I quoted scripture, it wasn't "me talking", it's scripture.

Why don't you go to that thread and let's discuss it there.

 

Did you open the link? It's not Jim Elliot.

 

"What a sweet release it was when I realized NNE was going to spend infinity in torment on account of anything I said or failed to say, or did or failed to do. WAAAAY above my pay grade."
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