Featured Mixing the Metaphors

There are only a couple things worse than mixing the established and revealed metaphors of God. One worse thing is to completely ignore them. Even worse is to deny them altogether and to teach they do not exist. People who are most guilty are those who speak and write and publish their doctrines in a public forum like from pulpits and Bible commentaries and opinion articles where they influence others to do with them what they do.

One of the classic problems with the Baptists on this forum is to reverse the teaching of the scriptures and a great example of this is to see how many, if not most on here, are willing to make the church of Jesus Christ a metaphor for Israel when the opposite, Israel is a metaphor for the church of Jesus Christ, is closer to the truth. They do this through the doctrine of "replacement theology." I do not need to explain this theology here.

The reason I mention the posters on this forum is because for a long time I have read the comments and philosophies of these folk and now know how they think. I do not have to guess about what they believe and teach. I know of not a single regular poster on this forum who understands and believes that the physical and historic Israel is a real and eternal entity with specific and detailed prophecies about them that is not shared with any other entity and those things that are prophesied about them that have not already come to pass will surely be realized sometimes in the future. This is as sure as the God of heaven who made the prophesies.

In order for this people and nation to be a type and their characteristics applied to the antitype they must be studied and understood else no sense could be drawn from it as a basis for the metaphor. The church of Jesus Christ is "like" Israel in several respects but it is not Israel and Israel remains it's own identity even though it is the basis of the metaphor. Things that are different between the two are as important as those things that are alike.

When God through history likens his people and family of Israel to sheep he is not speaking of the church of Jesus Christ. This is about this family. They were like sheep before there was a church of Jesus Christ and the church of Jesus Christ is never referred to as sheep. It was not the church of Jesus Christ to whom the prophets of old wrote and said the following;

Israel is a scattered sheep; the lions have driven him away: first the king of Assyria hath devoured him; and last this Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon hath broken his bones.

This could never be said about the church of Jesus Christ because the church of Jesus Christ, unlike Israel, is a kingdom without physical boundaries and the citizens of this part of the kingdom are bound together by brotherhood via the testimony of salvation, the gospel, that was wrought through Jesus Christ, every believer possessing the gift his divine nature, the Spirit of God, through faith during the absence of the King. They are not related because of physical considerations.

Israel, OTOH, is the physical family of God who was established by an everlasting covenant that promised their perpetual existence as a nation with land boundaries clearly laid out in that covenant. These covenant promises cannot fail unless God who promised them can fail. One of the elements of the Abrahamic covenant is that all the families of the earth are being blessed through the seed of Abraham, Jesus Christ, during the 3 one thousand year days of God while Jesus is away.

Since using metaphors are one of the ways of God to dispense truth, they must be mastered and correctly and consistently applied to assure sound doctrine.

Does anyone agree with this evaluation of the circumstances?

 

Thanks for the reply, but how would progressive dispensationalists deal with the second metaphor, dogs" among whom Jesus by implication included the woman with great faith and maybe more than any he had seen in Israel? It also seems reasonable that this dog of a woman did not come to Jesus in order to receive her faith but that she came to Jesus with the faith that he could answer her request.. If, as some here claim, that one becomes a sheep when they believe, would we conclude that Jesus was mistaken about her nature by calling her a dog?

Here is the whole exchange.

Mt 15:21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

 

Thanks 37818 for responding but, as usual, I don't know what you mean.

 

You have not thought your theology through very well. The Bible never ever teaches what you propose in point #1. Jesus Christ did not come into the world in the beginning of the 5th Millennium of human history to make sheep out of sinners. The metaphor was established already during the times of the prophets. The idea that is brought forth is that Israel, God's people, are like sheep who wander off. He later says that it is the cause of a lack of faithful shepherds.

Jer 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Identifying "my people.,"

Ex 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Ex 3:10 Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt.
God said this to Moses while there were nations of gentiles in the world to whom he was not speaking of. Where you get the idea that Israel means gentile sinners and the sheep are the same I cannot tell but you did not get it from the scriptures.

In point #3 both Jesus and the gentile woman understood that Jesus was speaking metaphorically about her and her people when he used the phrase "dogs." To claim differently only proves you will not be honest with the texts and the establishment of the biblical metaphors.

 

Revelation 21:12 is a scene in the eternal state and so I am guessing you are referencing the trinitarian signature of God that is on all things he creates. Three in one and one in three co equal and co eternal. In this case it would be Israel, an entity unto itself, the church of Jesus Christ, likewise an entity, but both filled with the same Spirit of God? Israel, the restored and redeemed and cleansed wife of Jehovah and the church, the wife of Jesus Christ, taken from his broken body and fashioned into his bride in metaphoric understanding. The metaphor here is Adam and Eve in Eden, the paradise of God.

Solomon in his book said there is nothing new under the sun. He said what is has already been.

This is how we learn.

 

Okay. I have a convoluted understanding so the next time I have a Bible question I will mine the Baptist Board for your wisdom that you give in one or two sentence sound bites that explains nothing. Yeah, that's what I will do. That is sure to unconvolute me.

 

This of course is not true. Gentiles are not the ones Jesus Christ laid down his life for and they are not sheep. Jesus Christ laid down his life for his people Israel. God, because of his covenant promises to Israel, was obligated to provide salvation for them. The principle of God's salvation to Israel was his love for them and his resultant promise to them to save them because of his love.. Therefore these people were provided salvation from God on the principle of his promise. The very first chapter of Acts, after the resurrection says this;

Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Salvation is defined by receiving the Holy Ghost who is the free gift from God sent down from heaven in such abundance that all may drink him in and live because he is the life of God.

This would happen to gentiles in Acts 10, but not because of a promise to gentiles, but because of the grace and mercy of God. God did not say he was fulfilling a promise to gentiles by saving gentiles but that he was making gentiles "PARTAKERS" with the Jews in salvation. That is the definition of grace. The principle in the first century with Jews was promise. With gentiles the principle is grace.

Rom 15:15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

Ephesians 3:6
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

I am tired of telling you that you don't know these things because you do not believe the words. So, believe what you will. But you are not a sheep in the context of the metaphors of the Bible.

 

Lest one thinks I believe Christ death was not the atonement for the whole world like is insinuated by the poster let me post the words of the scriptures.

Ro 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

My comments were in the context of the sheep metaphor and principles of promise and and the principles of grace and mercy. He saved the Jews by promise and then made the gentiles partakers with them of his salvation.

Here is what the OT says about the events of the ministry of Christ;

Ro 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Nobody on this Baptist board believes that verse, Romans 15:8. Nobody here believes it.

9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.(his people are the Jews. He wants the gentiles to rejoice with them)
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.(ye people is a reference to the Jews)
12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse (the root of Jesse is Jesus Christ), and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Jesus said;
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

 

Do you understand the word "confirmation" and how it is used in the context of Romans 15:8. The history of the ministry of the apostle Paul to the gentiles to this point confirms OT promises to the three Patriachs of Israel. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and gives clarity to how God has kept them. The part of the Abrahamic covenant that is applicable to gentiles was that part that said, "and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed." He has kept this promise through Jesus Christ, his death, burial, and resurrection, and since 40 AD and Acts 10 when God opened the door of faith to the gentiles, the apostleship of Paul had center stage. His message and his gospel fulfills the theme of this entire age from the cross to the catching away of the bride of Christ; the theme being "the gospel of God." The gospel of God, the good news, the glad tidings to gentiles since those dates has been that God has availed the blood atonement of Christ on the cross to us, even without a promise to us to do so. Paul calls the gospel of God "my gospel." Why? read Eph 3 for that answer.

For some history: Romans was not written 1 day after the resurrection of Jesus Christ and no gentiles were saved before Cornelius in Acts 10, which incidentally was 10 years after the events of the cross. The Jewish rulers had officially rejected the Spirit of God in Acts 7, which was in 37 AD. The events that were past when Paul wrote Romans were things between Acts 1 and Acts 18. This was in AD 58 and it was the 7th epistle written and the 6th epistle written by Paul, the epistle of James having been written first. Many thousands of gentiles had been saved between AD 40 and AD 58. Enough time had passed that Romans would have made sense to both Jews and gentiles as God's purposes for the age were being worked out and the epistle to the Romans was the explanation of God for the events so far.

The first line in the book of Romans gives the theme for Paul's ministry and a passage in Romans 16 defines it. Here are both for you to see;

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated (from the other apostles) unto the gospel of God,
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

Now, admittedly, your Bible probably does not say these things. I am telling you what my Bible has taught me. I have read enough of your comments to know that you and I do not believe the same things about God. The reason for this must be in a large part because we have a different testimony of God.

Yes, that is what I mean. The reason I assert such a thing is because I read your comments. See the comments before this one. Be careful how you interpret my words here. I did not say that all did not believe the gospel, the power of God to save sinners, I said they do not believe the words of the scriptures.There is a difference.