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Hebrews 11:11

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Oct 25, 2024 at 11:53 AM.

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  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Every once in a while you come across an amazing problem with translation. This once boggles the mind.

    Hebrews 11:11 (NASB95) By faith even Sarah herself received [fn]ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised.
    And the NASB footnote reads "power for the laying down of seed."

    Now take a look at the NET rendering of the very same text!

    11:11 By faith, even though Sarah herself was barren and he was too old, he received the ability to procreate, because he regarded the one who had given the promise to be trustworthy.

    So we have either Sarah or Abraham receiving the ability to either "conceive" or "procreate." Now turn your eyes back to the NASB footnote, and see that normally it is the male who has or is given the ability to "throw down" seed. But where did all these "he" references come from? Not the text of the verse.

    On the other hand, women do "ovulate" or if you will "throw down the egg (female seed). Thus the verse if translated according to the Greek, might read,

    "Through faith even Sarah herself received the ability to ovulate [fn], and brought forth even though beyond the prime period, since she deemed the One promising faithful.
    Footnote: Greek "throw down seed"

    But if we stop here, we have only addressed the tip of the shipwrecking iceberg!

    The Greek word meaning "throw or cast down" is katabolEn G2602 a noun in the accusative case. The same word, in the genitive case is mistranslated as foundation the other 10 times our word appears in scripture.
     
    #1 Van, Oct 25, 2024 at 11:53 AM
  2. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Hummm, I read something about this last month (maybe in "Abraham's Silence"?) but I didn't make a note.

    Word Biblical Commentary (page 344) reads:

    This verse is unusually difficult, presenting questions of a textual, grammatical, and lexical character. Consequently, any translation must remain tentative. The primary question concerns the grammatical subj of the principal clause: Is Abraham or Sarah the subject of the main verb ἔλαβεν, “he/she received”?
    Lane, William L. 1991. Hebrews 9–13. Vol. 47B. Word Biblical Commentary. Dallas: Word, Incorporated.
    ​
    The note goes on for 2 whole pages.

    Maybe we can figure this out here on the BaptistBoard! LOL

    Rob
     
    #1 Deacon, Oct 25, 2024 at 12:39 PM
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I remember looking at this issue. Translators are divided on this. The "he" in verse 11 is being a continuation from versus 8.
     
    #2 37818, Oct 25, 2024 at 1:11 PM
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I typed "verse"
     
    #3 37818, Oct 25, 2024 at 3:20 PM
  5. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    I mean, how simple is this? Even hillbilly like me knows that Abraham was never plagued by an inability to fertilize an egg. He had many children by Keturah after Sarah died.

    1 Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.
    2 And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.
    3 And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were Asshurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.

    Abraham - father of many nations

    Reasoning and logic can go a long, long way.
     
    #4 JD731, Oct 25, 2024 at 5:06 PM
  6. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    Don't forget all his concubines. Genesis 25. But he sent all those children away. I never thought that was very nice. :rolleyes: He did give them gifts, though.

    Just to add this. Romans 4:18-19 states that Abraham's faith in God did not waver - even though Abraham was impotent at the time somewhere between Ishmael and Isaac - at most 14 years.

    That passage said that Abraham viewed his body as "dead", being 100 years old, and Sarah's body as "dead". But he still had faith in God.

    I've taught Genesis many times and always pondered on why there was, according to Romans 4, a period of impotency with Abraham. Obviously, God delivered him from that and he had scads more children from another wife and concubines.

    This is just my opinion from over the years, but I've wondered if God denied them the son of the promise, Isaac, for so many years because they denied being married for so long.
     
    #5 Scarlett O., Oct 25, 2024 at 7:34 PM
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2024 at 8:11 PM
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  7. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry Scarlett O but you are wrong on so many levels.. 1) I am sure Gen 6 is a typo because Gen 6 is in the first millennium of human history and Abraham in Gen 15 is a product of early in the third millennium.2) You will need to prove Abraham was impotent. The promise on a son was to come through Sarah and Abraham knew that. His body was dead in it's ability to produce a child through Sarah, not just because God had shut up her womb, but now, because she and Abraham had passed the time of childbearing together.

    There are all kinds of pictures drawn in the physical here that are prophetic types and patterns of a future and spiritual time. If you do not learn the ways of God and understand his signs, these will be just interesting stories to you. I will tell you they are far more. They are prophecies in type.

    If you learn his signs (metaphors - similitudes, etc), you, by taking the scriptures, can track God across an empty sky.
     
    #6 JD731, Oct 25, 2024 at 8:07 PM
  8. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    [1] Oops, yes, I meant Genesis 25:1-6. I was thinking that passage and only typed 6.

    [2] All I can tell you is that Romans 4:18-19 expresses Abraham's faith even though he knew his body was "now dead". Hebrews 11:12 says his body was as "good as dead" I think it's a stretch to say it was only Sarah unable to conceive and his problem was only with her. I'll not argue with you over this point.

    [3] You can be rest assured based on the fact that I have read and taught the Bible for decades - I do not consider the Bible "interesting stories".
     
    #7 Scarlett O., Oct 25, 2024 at 8:22 PM
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Thanks Deacon, I had not known their was widespread support for adding the "he" to the text.

    I do not think the verse is all that difficult with regard to its intended meaning.

    Is it in dispute that Sarah was beyond the age of procreation, being about 90 years old? I think not.

    Does scripture suggest Sarah's womb was nonfunctional? Yes Romans 4:19.

    Now lets look at the text: Here are the nineteen Greek words listed in their Greek word order. with the corresponding English
    Translation.

    11:11
    πίστει - by faith
    κα - even
    αὐτὴ - herself
    στεῖρα - Sarah
    δύναμιν - received
    εἰς - to
    καταβολὴν - casting down
    σπέρματος - of seed
    ἔλαβεν - ability
    καὶ - even
    παρὰ - beyond
    καιρὸν - season
    ἡλικίας - of prime
    ἐπεὶ - since
    πιστὸν - faithful
    ἡγήσατο - believing
    τὸν - the
    ἐπαγγειλάμενον - One promising.

    If we arrange the word order used in English, we get:

    By faith, even Sarah herself, received ability to down casting seed even beyond season of prime, since believing the One promising.     ​

    There is no need to fix the text by adding "he" received!

    Verse 11 simply explains the cause by which Abraham was able to father the child of the promise. No need for a rewrite.
     
    #8 Van, Oct 26, 2024 at 10:50 AM
  10. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

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    Somewhat interesting, but no problem for me, since I implicitly trust my KJB.

    Heb 11:11 - Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

    Both were physically incapable due to age. God restored their bodies, which explains why Abraham could father children after Sarah passed. When God heals, it’s real not like Hinn, pardon me even mentioning him.
     
    #9 MrW, Oct 26, 2024 at 4:53 PM
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