Featured I Now Know Why Some Deny the Rapture of the Church of Jesus Christ

Read the Bible and see that God's people are always one in faith as they place their faith in the Promised One.

It starts in Genesis 3.
The Bible is all about seeing Jesus.

 

Back to topic:


Revelation 13:5
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.


It is often suggested that the times given in Revelation are figurative, but seeing that they are identical to the prophecy of the Old Testament, it would seem that God maintains a consistent timeline in all Ages.


Daniel 12:7-12
King James Version

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


The abomination of desolation spoken of here was not fulfilled in Christ's day, as He reiterates the prophecy:


Matthew 24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)


Daniel extends "the end" with a 75 day period. The Abomination of Desolation, which is Antichrist standing in the Temple ...


2 Thessalonians 2
King James Version

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


... and if we follow the timeline of Revelation we see two 3 1/2 year periods. Antichrist comes into power at the mid-point of the Tribulation, following the Rapture of the Two Witnesses (Revelation 11:1-13).

Someone made the comment in this thread that there were no literal time frames in Revelation, so in view of the texts, it is incredible to me that this conclusion could be made: the time frame in both the Old and New texts are identical.


God bless.

 

Sorry, wrong again: no one receives a glorified body until the Rapture. Christ is the only One glorified in our present day.

The passage shows Paul's desire to be clothed upon with that heavenly body not made by hands, but made by God. While he understands it is better to be unclothed (dead) and with the Lord, the desire clearly shown is to receive the glorified body without dying.

And when we look at all passages relevant to the Rapture, we can conclude the Rapture was an expectation of Paul even then. How much more, today, should we groan to be clothed upon with that body that is eternal in the heavens?


God bless.

 

Replacement theologies also produce anti-Zionists.

 

Nope.
Your term, not mine, is purposely biased to keep you from understanding the Covenant of Grace that has always been God's redemptive plan.

There are two distinct groups in this world. We who have the mark of God upon us and the others who have the mark of the beast. Both groups have people from every nation, tribe, and tongue. The church has understood this from the beginning, but Darbyists have followed a path of segregation where they praise godless leaders in Israel as though they were saints. It is the equivalent of praising King Ahab and Queen Jezebel, while ignoring Elijah, and then saying that those who support Elijah are haters of Israel.

Finally, I hope you realize that Zionism is steeped in those who reject Jesus as Messiah with many being atheists. Where does God ever tell his church to support the Pharisees and Sadducees in the Bible?

Who do you support, the King of Kings or the godless?

Zionism | Definition, History, Examples, & Facts

 

Just to add to the desire of Paul to be glorified without dying, that is, his desire to be raptured, a look at the man's make-up might be a good footnote.

Are we a dichotomy (two part), or a trichotomy (three part)? When I was saved, I was taught we were body, spirit, and soul. I believed that for years, however, I have since embraced the position that we are two parts: a body, and a spirit, and the twain make the soul.

Adam didn't receive a soul when he was created, he was made a soul:

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

A few more passages that indicate a dichotomy:


Acts 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 7:14
Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls.

Acts 27:37
And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls.


The Lord also seems to confirm the dichotomy of man:


Luke 24:36-39
King James Version

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


The disciples knew the Lord had died, and when they saw Him, they thought they were seeing His spirit. His ghost, in the King's English. This shows their view: that when a person dies, their spirit departs from their body, rather than their "soul."

This is what Paul is referring to in 2 Corinthians 5:1-8. Being "unclothed" from our physical bodies.

Two proof-texts for a trichotomy are these:


1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


When I read this, I understand the words to refer to the spirit, the person, and the physical body. I can understand, though, why some would embrace "soul" referring to an immaterial aspect of man's make-up. In one sense it does, because even when the spirit departs from the body—it's still the person. That is why we see "souls under the altar" In Revelation 6:9. We see people under the altar.

The second best proof-texts is this:


Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


This one, for me, is easier to understand: The Word of God kills. Specifically, the Law, but even in New Testament times we see death as the result of both the written and spoken Word of God (Acts 5, Revelation 19).

The soul and spirit being divided is a euphemism for death. The souls under the altar are divided from their physical bodies, yet they are still people, still persons, because it is the spirit of a man that accounts for his understanding. We don't need the brain, for example, to think when we die.

So, when we see Paul's desire not to be unclothed with his earthly tabernacle, again, it is a clear indication of Paul's desire for the Rapture to take place. This in itself is another indication that the timing of the rapture is logically concluded as taking place prior to the Tribulation. This is the only view that doesn't require trying to make unfulfilled prophecy fit the events of the first century (which they don't, that is rather obvious), nor are we forced to spiritualize the very clear timeline of events recorded in Revelation. The prophecy of the Old Testament correlates exactly to the events of the Tribulation in regard to its length. Daniel foretells of a seven year period yet unfulfilled, refers to the Abomination of Desolation's establishment ending at a 3 1/2 year point (and then adds 75 days (which gives Satan a "season" when he is loosed from the pit)), and this prophecy is further verified by Christ Himself and Paul (Matthew 24:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4). The Pre-Tribulation Rapture doesn't interfere with the prophecy of Revelation 20 as an amillennial and Post-Trib view do, but shows us who it is that enters into the Kingdom promised to Israel in so many prophecies of the Hebrew Scriptures and the Gospels. The Sheep, the righteous born-again believers of Matthew 25 enter into that Kingdom and produce offspring that will join ranks with Satan and be destroyed prior to the resurrection in which the dead are raised and judged at the Great White Throne (Revelation 20:7-11).

The Prophecy of Scripture is consistent, and will be fulfilled to the jot and tittle.

It is just my hope that on this blessed day, Christmas, that the living hope we have been born again unto will be strong in the Body of Christ, and that God's blessing will be upon all of you.


God bless.

 

A meeting in the clouds isn't mentioned here, either ...


1 Corinthians 15:51-54
King James Version

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


... but we would be foolish not to recognize that Paul is referring to the same event, right? And the terminology is identical to the terminology of 2 Corinthians 5-8.

And, you say a second resurrection takes place at Christ's time, but Scripture only records one, that is, the First Resurrection. Since you haven't been reading my responses, I'll just say that the word "first," protos, can refer to rank, rather than sequence. The First Resurrection speaks of the two types of resurrections, the resurrection unto life, and the resurrection unto damnation (which takes place at the Great White Throne).

This isn't the Rapture.

We know this, because only those who died in the Tribulation are mentioned, and they are raised to rule with Christ on the Earth, rather than caught up like those in the Rapture (as well as the rapture of the Two Witnesses, Revelation 11:1-13).

Secondly, you still have the problem of a thousand years between Christ's Return and the Great White Throne Judgment. If you want to make that thousand years figurative, great. You have no interpretive basis for it, only a system of theology trying to make Scripture say something it doesn't.

And, even if you spiritualize the thousand years—it still shows a period of time between His Return, the First Resurrection, and the General Resurrection of the dead where the unjust are raised to life again!

Your system is broken, my friend. I don't say that to be mean, just pointing out the obvious. You take away what is said and insert what isn't there. Just try reading it as it is given, it will make much more sense to you.

I hope to talk to you again at some point, and I hope at that time we can actually have a conversation. That means, both parties listening to what the other has to say, and addressing those points. In the meantime, have a merry Christmas, my friend!


God bless.

 

Read the OP to se what the thread is about.




God bless.

 

You deviated from the topic. Also, look at how I bring it back to the fact that all Christians (except perhaps Post Millennial advocates) believe in the rapture of the church.
The difference is in when the rapture takes place, not if it takes place. Amillennial teaching is that we who are alive are brought to meet Jesus in the air, after the dead have received their second resurrection, at which time Jesus accomplishes all that is stated in Revelation 19.

I understand that the letter of Revelation is not meant to be a linear timeline, but is instead, a tapestry that John is viewing and describing (sort of like when you would look at a "Where's Waldo" page). John is describing what he is seeing and constantly pointing to images and then, later, looking deeper at an image he has seen previously.

 

Biblically there are only two resurrections. The first are the saved with the raptured church. The second is the Judgement of the lost.

 

The first is at our salvation.
(Ephesians 2:1-7)
Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else. But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.

Notice the past tense of this resurrection. Our present position is seated in the heavenlies with Christ. Our first resurrection.

The second is Christ Jesus return to rule and reign.

Here is where we disagree regarding the timing of the rising to meet Jesus in the air.

Ultimately the problem for premillennialism is the completely inexplicable coming if Jesus to reign in perfect glory, only to leave after an exact 1000 years where he abandons the church to Satan's attacks yet again, but then comes to destroy Satan and his armies yet another time.
This scenario is never, ever, expressed anywhere in the 66 books of the Bible, but is somehow extrapolated from 10 verses in Revelation 20:1-10. Not only is it culled from only those verses, but some premillennialists have accused non-premillennislists of not being Christians because they reject such a tenuous extraction from those verses.
After that comes the accusation that non-premillennialists don't love people who trace their genetic code to Jacob because non-premillennialists see Jesus as the olive tree where Israel was born and where the rest of the world is grafted in. We see that Jesus can and does re-graft those of Jacob's lineage back in to Christ Jesus. We see the Covenant of Grace as the covenant God has with all who believe.

 

You are correct, other than calling present-day saints vindicated—I believe justified is rightly applied to those who are born again.

 

A very bad translation!

Ephesians 2:6, ". . . And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: . . ."

 

Every translation tells you the same thing. We are presently raised to sit at the throne with Jesus. Look at the tense.

 

Do not be so dishonest!
Not to be confused with the bodily resurrections. Which I referred!

 

The first resurrection started with Christ Himself. All the righteous will be raised in stages, but it’s all the first resurrection.

All the lost are raised in the second resurrection.

 

There is no dishonesty on my part.

From Revelation 20:4-6.
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Now Ephesians 2:4-7.
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

I know you cannot, or will not, make the connection. You have been taught a certain view and shifting a paradigm is hard for anyone, especially if you have had a certain view taught to you since birth.

 

It is not Biblically called the first resurrection until Revelation 20:5-6. Being the bodily resurrection of the saints.

 

Amillennialism to me is a nonfundamentalist error.

 

Christ is called the first fruits from the dead. Wouldn’t that indicate He is the beginning of the first resurrection? And Matthew says the graves were opened and saints were seen walking around.