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The focus in Jn 3 is the birth from above, which is solely 100% of God - John 1:13, the focus is NOT the lifting up of Christ. Contrary to what some of these nut job anti-Cals believe, the creature doesn't choose to be born. We've no more say so in our heavenly births than we did our earthly births.

You're saying one must keep His commandments in order to be born from above? Hogwash. Youi're doing some major conflating of two different things.

 

John 1:12-13 always reveals just how shallow you ranting anti-Cals are. Your cockamamie interpretation of it is that one chooses of their own will to be born not of their own will.

John 1:12-13 is simply revealing that the birth from above precedes conversion here below. Acts of the Apostles 13:48

 

You must require someone to point out your logical errors as you do not see them for yourself. You do not seem to understand context or you would not make the errors.

That fact you ignore John 3:16 is telling.

John 3 contains more verses than just 1-8. If you want to understand what John was saying you need to consider all the verses. Even if we leave aside John 3:16 and just consider Jesus' response to Nicodemus, John 3:9-15, it shows the error of your position.

We do not see the wind but we can see the effect of the wind just as we can not see the Holy Spirit but we can see the effect of the Holy Spirit in a persons life.

 

First, the focus of the issue being discussed is the "how" of regeneration, in response to Nicodemus' question "How can these things be?" And the answer is "The Son of Man must be lifted up." Nobody said the focus of John 3 is the Lifting up of Christ.

Secondly, only half of John 3 is even relevant to that discussion.

Third, no-one, especially myself—denied that the New Birth is 100% of God.

Fourth, in regards to the New Birth—the lifting up of Christ is very much the focus. The Lord did not say "The Son of Man must be lifted up and His will obeyed." No, He points to the result of the Cross, which is that men will believe and receive eternal life.

Remember the Moderator that used to bombard the forum with ...

Address the Post! Not the Poster!

No, I didn't think you did.

Not entirely true: the natural man can in fact reject the Ministry of the Comforter.

It's just a fact.

In that way he can deprive himself of Regeneration.

As far as Calvinism goes, just as any system, it has errors. One primary error is the teaching that man's will in the redemptive process is entirely devoid of his interaction. Again, men can deny salvation, and that is an inherent ability. Another error of Calvinism, and a huge one, which leads Calvinists astray in other areas, is the teaching that men have always been born again (that is, throughout all economies). This particular error directly ignores a number of definitive teachings that make it clear that no man was eternally indwelt by God prior to Pentecost.

If you are so sure of your system, perhaps you'd like to begin with this:

Colossians 1:25-27
King James Version

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


Paul makes it clear that the Mystery of Christ was hidden from Ages and Generations. And equally clear it is now made manifest to His saints.

And it is to these saints (the ones the Mystery is now being revealed) that He is making known the riches of the Glory of the Mystery of Christ, namely—the indwelling of Christ.

The view that Christ has indwelt men prior to Pentecost fails to recognize the fact that the Son of God is Eternal God, whereas the Christ was prophesied to come. The logical conclusion for prophecy that foretells the coming of something is simple: it hasn't happened yet. There is a point in time when God took upon Himself the flesh of man, ministered under the economy of the Covenant of Law, died on the Cross, rose again, returned to Heaven—and then sent the Comforter (the Spirit of Truth) to not only reveal the Mystery of the Gospel, but to eternally indwell men.

Calvinists ignore that. Will you?

First, I didn't say that.

Secondly, in regards to v.15, you impose your own effort to support your view with a commandment, rather than what is actually there, which is the Lord encouraging the disciples to keep the words He is giving them. This is an example of merging the Covenant of Law with the soon-coming New Covenant, which of course cannot be established apart from the death of Christ.

Keep in mind that John 14-17 is primarily Prophecy. The Lord is telling the disciples of what is going to happen, not what is taking place. Here are some examples:

John 14

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

For the record, I always post this in order to help keep the context, and to show a preceding verse is not critical to the context.


16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Here, the Comforter has not come. It is a future event, just as his "abiding forever" is.


17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Here, again we see reference to the eternal indwelling of God promised by God in the Old Testament. It hasn't happened yet.

He was currently with the disciples, but because they are not yet born again, He was not yet in them. It is a future event.


18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

His Return is yet a future event.


19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

His resurrection is yet a future event.


20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

"At that day" refers to a future event. Again the indwelling is in view.


21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

The keeping of His commandments (not necessarily the Law, but Christ's teaching, "My words, v.23) is a proof, not a means of their salvation. The disciples did not, in fact, "keep His commandments." As prophecy foretold—they scattered like sheep, Peter going so far as to deny he even knew Jesus Christ. Why? Because the truth of the Mystery of the Gospel had not yet been revealed to him.


22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

He has not yet manifested Himself to the world. It is a future event.


23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

The disciples are not yet indwelt. They are not yet the abode of the Spirit of Truth, the Father, or the Son.

Why? Because the Christ has not yet died, rose again, and returned to Heaven that he might send the comforter (see John 16:7-8).


24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Again, the Comforter has not yet come. It is a future event.


27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

And quite simply, this is a direct statement as to the prophetic nature of Christ's teaching.

How have Calvinists missed this?




God bless.

 

Your rant just proves that you do not have a grasp of basis English or of context.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, {do you not see the condition there KY}
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. {man cannot save themselves but God saves those that meet the condition He set}

You even prove this again when you refer to Act 13:48. When you read verses in context, which is something that you rarely do, you will actually find the truth.

Act 13:46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
Act 13:47 "For so the Lord has commanded us, 'I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES, THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.'"
Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

The gentiles responded in faith to the gospel message that the Jews rejected.

 

Is there someone on the forum that believes this, or is there general disagreement as to whether evangelism is necessary?


God bless.

 

Dude, you're the first and for a long time the only person I put on ignore because of your ridiculously long posts that swamps a thread. I'm not going to commit the time to decipher this.

 

More than two.

John 5

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This particular resurrection refers to the resurrection of the dead at the end of the Millennial Kingdom. Prior to that we have Christ's Resurrection (which stands alone in its own category), followed by the Resurrection that takes place at the Rapture, followed by the resurrection and rapture of the Two Witnesses, followed by the resurrection of the dead (again, following the MK, Revelation 20:5).

New Birth is viewed by some as a resurrection, but the problem with that is those born again receive life they never had before. That is, the life of God. We receive this life through the eternal union God establishes with us when we are redeemed.




God bless.

 

Not because you don't want to, but because you cannot: it is irrefutable.

So, short and sweet: make a case for saints being born again in the Old Testament. You can do one verse at a time if that makes it easier for you.

To sum up my last response, you charged me with saying keeping commandments was necessary for salvation simply because I included v.15.

And for the record, I already know my response is irrefutable, thus the post was more for the benefit for others, rather than yourself. You forget we have crossed keyboards for, what, about 13-14 years now?

But, put me on ignore. Pretty sure it isn't the first time. Probably won't be the last.




God bless.

 

The creature doesn't choose to be born, neither physically nor spiritually.

13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1

 

How is that relevant to anything I have ever said?

I view regeneration as the result of God's ministry in the lives of natural men.

But that does not mean men do not employ their will to reject the Gospel. In that way the will natural man has is relevant to salvation, and only in that way.


God bless.

 

So, a case for men being regenerate in the Old Testament? Or the New, prior to Pentecost? Since you are focusing on defending Calvinism, could you support that doctrine?


God bless.

 

Matthew 7:21, . . . but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

1 John 5:1, Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . .

 

I'm curious as to why you removed the verse. Definitely relevant to regeneration being God's will.

Here's another:

James 1

18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


God bless.

 

1 John 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.




God bless.

 

We were discussing John 3. Where is regeneration mentioned in Jn 3?

 

Deja Vu, again.