Featured Rewriting the Tulip

Great. Now all you have to do is present where in the Bible you find that.

It isn't there, because it would bring other teachings of Scripture into conflict with itself.

Would you mind explaining what Paul means here ...


1 Corinthians 2:14
King James Version

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

...?

I do, because that is what Christ taught. What exactly does "the world" mean to you?

You have said this same thing several times, and it is irrelevant to my own statements.

Sorry, no: it takes an act of God.

Give God the glory.

Good thing my Theology is amphibious.

It's quite clear you don't understand my Theology.

And blaming God is a sure sign of confusion on the parts of those who do so: if God does not save everyone He cannot possibly love everyone.

Worse, this demands that God demand a conditional response, and denies that He saves men and women specifically because of His love for them.

It's just a Biblical Truth: most will go into eternal separation. This is irrelevant to whether natural man can understand spiritual things or not. Why you would charge me with the above false argument when I have spent so much time advocating for the position that God will give every man and woman an opportunity to be saved indicates you aren't really interested in hearing what I do have to say.

Is that Christian Doctrinal Discussion in your book?

Again, it's kind of a no-brainer. Of course an Omniscient God would know who would receive and reject.

The basic thrust is, "God knew before He created the world who would be eternally saved, thus they are the Chosen."

The alternative is God decided apart from His convicting ministry. So why bother? Why would He go to the trouble to bring all unbelievers to the knowledge of the truth if He knew 1) they would not receive Him, or 2) He never meant to give them a valid opportunity.

When a defendant stands before a judge and is asked, "What is your plea?" this is done for the sake of justice. So too, that God gives men an opportunity yet they reject it, God remains Just. He does not force the guilty/not guilty plea on anyone. When men are judged, their fate will be held solely as a due to their actions, not God's.

You've yet to make a valid argument by which you can justify such a claim.

Correct, as shown in the example of the Rich Man and Lazarus. However, what I have tried (in part) to do is distinguish the significance of the Revelation of the Mystery of Christ, thus the Magnitude of the Cross.


John 14:16-17
King James Version

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


There's a difference between men being in relationship with God in Old Testament Eras and being in relationship with Him through Christ. Christ's teachings here show that distinction.

He dwelt with them, not in them.

The disciples actions when He was taken show the extent of their "faith." When we broadbrush faith in Scripture, we fail to consider the teachings that we, as born-again believers, are commanded to continue in.

Now that is a condition set by the Lord, yet, this too does not impact our Redemption in Christ. How we grow is going to be varied among believers, as is the rate of that growth. That we are found to be in error at times in doctrine doesn't change the fact that we have been obedient to the Gospel. And just as God gave instructions to fathers, even so He gives instruction to us. When we are disobedient, it isn't to what we have decided His instruction is, it is the instruction itself.

Give God the glory.


God bless.

 

There are other views, such as believers can fall into sin, as Scripture makes clear.

It might be good for you to notice that our inheritance is in view. This does not preclude an extreme of getting angry with God and denying our salvation.

1 Peter 1:3-5
New American Standard Bible

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable, undefiled, and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Your version of the NASB seems to have left out a few words:

reserved in heaven for who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Oh, that's right, you have scissors ...

Where in this do you see that our personal faiths are impervious to weakness in times of our walk with the Lord?


God bless.

 

Agreed.


God bless.

 

Strange that you would call biblical salvation "Mob Rule". The more you write the less it seems you actually trust what the bible says.

See there you go again.You just cannot help yourself can you. It is not God helps those that help themselves and if you actually studied the bible you would know this. God saves those that freely trust in Him as the bible clearly shows.

You continue to draw the wrong understanding from Eph 2.8. Read the text without your calvinism clouding your view. Salvation is by the grace of God because we believe. Man does not save himself so we cannot boast. That is the biblical view.

Antecedents and Faith (Eph_2:8-9)
“Grace is God's part, faith ours.” He adds that since in the original the demonstrative “this” (and this not of yourselves) is neuter and does not correspond with the gender of the word “faith,” which is feminine, it does not refer to the latter “but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part.”
“In Eph_2:8 … there is no reference to διὰ πίστεως [through faith] in τοῦτο [this], but rather to the idea of salvation in the clause before.”
A. T. Robertson {RWP} found in Baker's cmtx

Well you are posting as if you hold to the DoG/reformed/PB which is just other names for calvinism so I would hazard a guess that you are calvinist.

You say none in OT times received Eternal Redemption that may be rue or just an assumption on your part as I am quite sure God has not told you. You do remember that God is sovereign and He can do as He pleases with those who trusted in Him in the OT. Your statement sounds just a bit arrogant there Darrell.

Do you remember who Abraham is?
Jas_2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS." And he was called the friend of God.



If you post a response on this forum, you will talk to others.

Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

"if you confess" is a conditional phrase since you do not seem to understand English grammar. Another condition is believe. And then we can see the result, "resulting in salvation"

Actually we do see a condition you are truly disciples of Mine if you "continue in My word" if they do then as Jesus said "you are truly disciples of Mine" so logically if you do not then they are not His disciples.

Your funny you say it justifies the conclusion in other words the condition has been met.

So the disciples ran, what does that show but the they were scared.

Where do you calvinist's come u with all these silly ideas?

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

Which goes right along with this

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

God saves those that trust in Him which since you seem to miss the obvious all the time gives Him the glory for our salvation.

 

I will say that I have not come across many that have such a warped view of scripture such as you. You have continued to twist the word of God to the point that it is just about unrecognizable.

You are to get your theology from scripture not read your theology into scripture.

He told the disciple to preach the gospel message to the whole world that those that believe in God will be saved.

Your errant theology is poles apart from the truth of scripture. As you put it only those picked out before the foundation of the world can be saved and as a result you have made God a liar. He says salvation is available to all and your errant theology say that He is wrong.

So it is not God you are trusting in for your salvation but your errant theology.

 

I understand that this is a really hard concept for you to grasp so I will try to make it as clear as possible for you.

While the truths may be known it does not mean that all will follow them just as those that are saved have the Holy Spirit indwelling them and yet they will still sin.

So God giving use these truths is not of no consequence, the person then has no excuse for saying they did not know. But their knowing does not mean they are unable to sin or that they will not sin as you seem to think by your comment.

You continue to make these really dumb comments. Care to show me where I have said my faith saves me. Your lack of scriptural knowledge is tripping you up. The fact you do not grasp what the scriptures plainly tell you saddening. If you would just trust the text rather than try to read into the text you would clear up your errors.

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, [did you catch that] but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because [and here is the reason] he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

That one verse should clear up many of your errors.

When I said you deny scripture you called in twaddle and then turn around and deny scripture. You seem to be very confused.

Do you not see the failure in your logic, man can know what the truths are but man cannot trust those truths. In other words have faith in the one those truths are about and thus being saved by the grace of God.

God is most glorified when we freely trust in Him for our salvation.

The truth found in Eph 2:8 has not eluded me but you do seem to have trouble grasping it. I quoted A. T. Robertson and you ignore what he said, perhaps you will trust this:
Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Now I am quite sure that you will continue to say faith is a work which just shows that you do not trust scripture but rather deny what it says.

 

How was the faith of Abraham different form yours or mine? Do you not believe in God, I do.
Gal_3:6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Rom_3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom_9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;

Note the order in those verses they believe and then attain righteousness of God.

God and does do all those things but you stop short as you left of the critical part, the person has to freely believe and trust the message sent. That is unless you think God does the believing for them?

That is the element that you are lacking in your understanding of biblical salvation

You do have a strange ability to overlook the obvious don't you. "Whoever will call" implies the condition.

You say God has set the if/then conditions than say we are not under the if/then conditions.

Act 16:31 They answered, "[If you] Believe on the Lord Jesus, and [then] you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9 because if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, [then] you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For [if] one believes with the heart and so [then] is justified, and [if] one confesses with the mouth and [then] so is saved.

You seem to think those exact words have to be in the text before the if/then condition is shown.

I do not deny God's word or His messengers but when you say the Holy Spirit allows natural man to understand then you are stepping outside scripture. If you hold to the H S has to allow man to understand then you are making God responsible for all those that do not and thus are lost.

So you cannot see the condition in this verse? This would lead me to say you are being willfully blind.
Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you had heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and had believed in him, were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit;

As I have said numerous times but it seems to go over your head, God saves those that believe. No faith no salvation.

Ahem, I do believe that I have pointed out that those that hear and reject the message still know they are sinners. But you still seem to have a problem coming to grips with that. Your view of conviction is not biblical as you seem to think that conviction of sin will cause one to trust in God.

I do understand what your position is and as I have pointed out before it is not biblical. Conviction of sin does not always result in turning away from that sin. In fact since the HS convicts the whole world one should conclude that turning away from sin is a rather rare result.

You just proved my contention and more. Some will be convicted and will trust only to later turn away and other will just outright reject the conviction.

 

I guess I need to explain each statement: the idea that because most people believe or embrace something makes a matter true was your argument.

Mob Rules.

I didn't attribute that to myself: this is stated based on yourposition:

If you want to embrace a position because most do, okay. I can take you through the Word of God and not only show you that the truth is never the majority, but that Christ Himself taught a many/few ratio concerning salvation, which means—if the majority believes it, there's a problem there.

I guess it is a matter that you simply refuse to understand my position, or are not able to. Either way, you are trying to teach two differing views.

I call this hypocrisy.

If you think you are the one that generated your faith, the only logical conclusion is that you think you saved yourself.

And by the way, you can call me a Catholic as well, because I believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity. You can call me a charismatic, because I still believe God works miracles. You can call me an Arminian, because I believe in prevenient grace.

But you would be wrong to do so: I am a Baptist. And I trace my doctrine back to the original baptists.

As the tag someone had or has stated, John was a Baptist, Peter was a Baptist, Paul was a Baptist, the Lord is still a Baptist ... so I am a Baptist too.

Can I point out one simple truth: when we read salvation is not of ourselves, and not of works—this is all inclusive.

So you can trust in Man's determination, or you can trust in the Word of God.

Your boasting is not good.

Once more:

Ephesians 2:8-9
King James Version

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What part of saved by grace do you not understand?

Does it read, "You are saved by grace and faith?"

For you, it does.

It is because you are more interested in vilifying others that your understanding remains clouded. Because you have a hatred for your Calvinistic brethren (and I dare you to deny them as brethren), your goals are not those of an evangelist, or teacher, or proclaimer of truth. Calvin has more of your attention than does Christ. Why the fascination?

You want to speak of my error, yet you impose into the nature of man that which Scripture specifically denies. Man is born dead. He does not have life. Don't take my word for it ...

John 6:53

King James Version
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


Spend a little time with the Lord this afternoon, and understand what it is He actually accomplished. Here's a preview:

John 6

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

You are in direct conflict with the Lord: you teach that men can come to God apart from the drawing of the Father. They do so by having faith.


45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

You teach that men do not need to be taught of God, they can have faith of themselves.


46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.


You fail to see that belief is the result, not the means.


48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.


You fail to recognize that man has not the life that is necessary for Eternal Redemption. The Lord taught that natural man is dead, you give them a non-existent life when you impose into his nature an ability to recognize truth by inherent ability.

Those the Lord taught on this day didn't need to know those who were in the wilderness were physically dead. That is not the Lord's point. In view is the lack of life that Christ, the Living Bread came to bestow.

And I take note you continue to ignore the points being made.


Continued...

 

And, like with everything you have posted thus far, you would be wrong.

Just as I am not a Catholic because I believe in the Trinity, I am not a Calvinist because I believe in the depravity of man.

The fact that you do not know is why there is gross error, not only in your doctrine, but in your manners.

It's not an assumption. But you would have to continue in the Lord's teachings in order to know this truth. Here's a little help (and I would suggest that if you drop the attitude and take the conversations you are in a little more seriously—you might just come to understand your antagonists a little better, and treat them a little better):

John 7

37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

First, to address your hangup with placing conditions on believers, note that the Lord states "Those that believe ..."

I would suggest to you that, without controversy, we can take the Word of God as truth, and one of the truths to focus on here is that no one is believing on Christ yet. Unless you think a man can be born again through faith in the coming of Messiah. If so, then you must also conclude that all Jews still awaiting Messiah are eternally redeemed.

Do you?

Secondly, John sets the condition:

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

It should be obvious that in order for rivers of living to flow from those who are believing on Jesus Christ, the condition Scripture gives is that the Holy Ghost must be given.

Do you know when that takes place. Do you know when the Prophecy of John 14-17 was fulfilled?

You should.


Continued...

 

And I am arrogant?

Not sure how you can draw this conclusion when, after all of these posts, you still don't even know what it is I believe.

Not only has the Lord told me, but He has told everyone. But you have to get into the Word in order to hear Him.

And you forget that is my position. As opposed to men saving themselves by believing and having faith.

Again, we are saved by grace through faith, not by faith through grace. You are an advocate of the latter, and I understand why it is you cannot yet recognize this error.

We are not amused.

And ...?

Do you think his justification equates to eternal redemption? Don't answer that, because I already know you do.

Let me ask you this: is the justified man in the following teaching eternally redeemed?

Luke 18:9-14
King James Version

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

There's an obvious answer to my question, but I'll leave you to work it out on your own. I'll just present another passage to compare in your musings:

Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

No Cross, no eternal redemption, and no justification based on what Christ did.

You can equate Abraham's justification based on his actions with Eternal Redemption and the process by which we receive eternal life, but you are going to have to ignore the larger part of the New Testament in order to do so, and still be left with an indefensible position.

So don't talk me about God's Sovereignty: that is precisely the position you are rejecting.


Continued...

 

Again, this was given to show the obvious nature of result versus "condition." It was left out of the quote.

Again, since you do not bother to actually pay attention to what your antagonist says, I have never denied that men repent, believe, or express faith. Which makes the insults even worse, lol.

The primary issue is how men repent, believe, and have faith. Again, natural man is incapable, that is just a biblical truth that is never going to go away for you. Apart from the Ministry of the Comforter, there is no revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel in the hearts of unbelievers. Men repent, believe, and have faith only as a result of that enlightenment.

If you would simply address that point, you might save yourself some embarrassment.

You're not even giving the statement the full attention it deserves.

First, note that when the Lord teaches this—none of them are believing. I've already discussed this, but you ignored it. You can't consider your participation in a discussion valid if what your antagonist is saying means nothing to you. You are speaking at me, SH, not with me. Address the points.

Secondly, what does He mean by "... continue in My Word?" He means, "That what I am teaching you (and have taught you), continue in. And what did He teach them?

That's the part you are missing.

Third, how can it be a condition when it is He that is the One explicitly saying He is the One that is going to effect these things? Did you read any of the Scripture I presented?

John 14

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Let's go back to John 6:

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Men are not self taught as you teach.


Continued...

 

Your continued misunderstanding of Eph 2:8 is clear. You do not have to keep telling me what you think. Scripture does not support your view and yet you cling to it.

This is just one more of your errors.
Act 17:26 He also made every nation of man of one blood, to dwell on all the face of the earth—having ordained times before appointed, and the bounds of their dwellings—
Act 17:27 to seek the LORD, if perhaps they felt after Him and found, though, indeed, He is not far from each one of us,
Act 17:28 for in Him we live, and move, and are; as certain of your poets have also said: For we are also His offspring.

So now you are saying that Paul also got it wrong. He was telling these "dead men" to do just what you say they cannot do.

But we should not forget what Jesus said,
Luk 11:9 "So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Luk 11:10 "For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.

By your logic even He got it wrong. Man sins but man also can think and make choices and God expects us to do so. That is why we are held responsible for the choices we make.

What you failed and continue to fail to understand is that man's sin separates him from God but God has given man the ability to hear and understand the gospel or the preaching of it would be a waste of time.

Do you not find it strange that you impose conditions on man that God does not.

You just do not like my answers.

 

On the contrary, it is a matter of your "condition" being the result, as I have said.

It is a fulfillment of Prophecy:

John 16

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


Note the disciples "believe." This is challenged by Christ. The fact is they do believe, but they don't. They believe in the Messiah, and are convinced He is the Messiah, but they are not yet obedient to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Why? Because it hasn't been revealed to them yet.

Sorry, but this is a faulty perception of the condition of the disciples. They weren't scattered because they were scared (though that is an element), they were scattered because they dod not yet believe on the Risen Savior, and wouldn't until Pentecost.

And the moment the Comforter comes the revelation of the Gospel Mystery is unveiled and they begin preaching the Gospel.

I can't speak for them, but my silly ideas come from the Word of God. And you can justly call them silly when you are able to actually discuss them with some semblance of sincerity. But it's more important to vilify Calvinists, isn't it? Can you honestly look back at your posts and see where the better part of your time is spent?

If we are defending systems (or even railing at them) more than we are declaring the Gospel to a lost world—there's a problem.

Of course, for some, the Gospel remains a mystery. Praise God we are saved by grace. Not by our faith.

First, a little suggestion: often the explanation or reason for a biblical statement can be found on the preceding pages. This becomes obvious to the reader when a "wherefore" or "therefore" is found.

I'll point out that the phrase "... and that, not of yourselves" disqualifies the notion that our faith saves us. As does "... it is the gift of God."

Next, consider justification, that is, the declaration of righteousness based on Christ:

Here is man's condition prior to the Cross of Christ:

Romans 3

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


Here is the condition Christ provided for through His Work:

Romans 3

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


At this point your focus is on v.22, and your position completely ignores that which follows. That is why you post Romans 5 without reference to Romans 3.

You are declaring Abraham's righteousness when you cling to your faith as salvific.

Read it again:

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

The justification of Abraham as set forth in Romans 5 is given to show a precedent for God justifying men by belief and faith. In no way is it meant to be equated to Justification based on what Christ did, as opposed to what men were justified for during their lifetimes.

Scripture didn't change its teaching in the New Testament: prior to Christ, all men were still under sin. I can't emphasize this point enough.

When Abraham died, he still awaited the Atonement:

Hebrews 11
King James Version

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Until Pentecost, the disciples had not received the Promise, either:

Acts 1:4-5
King James Version

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


The math is easy.

One last passage to consider:

Romans 4:3-5
King James Version

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Note who is being justified: is it not the ungodly? If they already had faith, wouldn't it be counted as righteousness? Would they still be considered ungodly?

I always count it an honor when my antagonists repeat my arguments.




God bless.