1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Given, Granted or Allowed?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jul 21, 2024.

Top Posters
Page 3 of 3
  1. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    20,125
    Likes Received:
    2,985
    Faith:
    Baptist
    More corruption from Vanology.

    You've been corrected on this before.

    Those in 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 are not 'lost', they're 'babes in Christ'.
     
    #41 kyredneck, Jul 25, 2024
  2. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    9,773
    Likes Received:
    341
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Then it is God's fault that Judas betrayed Christ?

    God bless.
     
    #42 Darrell C, Jul 25, 2024
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,247
    Likes Received:
    1,106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So you believe when Paul says he spoke as to "men of flesh" he was not referring to men of flesh? 1 Corinthians 3:1
     
    #43 Van, Jul 26, 2024
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,247
    Likes Received:
    1,106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes you have ignored "as to men of flesh" before, the phrase seems to have been written out of your text.
     
    #44 Van, Jul 26, 2024
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,247
    Likes Received:
    1,106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes!!! Duh. God chose Judas to be the betrayer. This is not rocket science. Was Judas heading for Hades and Gehenna when chosen? Yes. Duh. Does God owe mercy to sinners? Nope. Good Grief.
     
    #45 Van, Jul 26, 2024
  6. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    20,125
    Likes Received:
    2,985
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Correlates with (which is also reasonable):

    27 All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal [him.] Mt 11
     
    #46 kyredneck, Jul 26, 2024
  7. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    9,773
    Likes Received:
    341
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Your response makes me think of a "Court Cam" episode where the guy that was the voice of Charlie Brown (in the beloved cartoons) was being arraigned for stalking. He was quite impolite, and told the judge he hoped he had a heart attack and die.

    It's probably the "good grief!" that does so.

    Judas will be held accountable for his own sin of rejecting Christ. And only he. God did not force him to betray Christ, though He knew he would:

    John 6:70

    King James Version
    Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

    I would suggest another perspective for you that is more in line with what Scripture teaches us about the nature of God: he was chosen despite the fact that he would betray.

    And what that shows us is that God gave him an opportunity to embrace the truths he was being taught. He chose not to.

    Secondly, it has to be remembered that this takes place before the Gospel is being revealed to men. All of the disciples betrayed Christ. Is Peter any less culpable for denying Christ?

    Okay, I've enjoyed the visit. Catch you guys at a later date in time, Lord willing.


    God bless.
     
    #47 Darrell C, Jul 27, 2024
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,247
    Likes Received:
    1,106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    [quote = Darrel C]Judas will be held accountable for his own sin of rejecting Christ. And only he. God did not force him to betray Christ, though He knew he would: [/quote]

    Good Grief, yet another "the opposite of what I posted" response. Did I say God forced Judas to betray Christ? Nope
    I said since Judas was chosen as the "betrayer" Judas was not "allowed" to believe in Christ. And of course, Jesus knew that Judas would betray him, so the betrayal was predestined at least at that point in time.

    Next, this poster actually says God allowed Judas to believe, rather than accept John 6:65 saying God did not allow, permit or grant to Judas the opportunity to believe after he was chosen as betrayer.

    Here are the biblical facts:

    1) No one can believe if God's Good News is not presented to the individual.

    2) No one can believe after God hardens their heart such that they cannot believe.

    3) No one can believe after their heart has been hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
     
    #48 Van, Jul 27, 2024
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2024
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,247
    Likes Received:
    1,106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So Jesus added, "Because of this I told you that no one can trust in Me unless the Father has allowed him to believe.

    Also note this interpretive translation changes the ambiguous "come to Me" to "trust in Me" to make the actual subject clear.
     
    #49 Van, Jul 27, 2024
  10. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    7,478
    Likes Received:
    468
    Faith:
    Baptist
    and God doth commend His own love to us, that, in our being still sinners, Christ did die for us; Rom 5:8
    For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Rom 5:6

    Judas?

    IMHO - YES

    It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 1 Cor 15:43
    Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Rom 9:21
     
    #50 percho, Jul 28, 2024
  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    20,125
    Likes Received:
    2,985
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Christ died for the Devil? No.

    70     Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?
    71 Now he spake of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. Jn 6

    Can any of Christ's own ever perish? No.

    12 While I was with them, I kept them in thy name which thou hast given me: and I guarded them, and not one of them perished, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. Jn 17
     
    #51 kyredneck, Jul 28, 2024
  12. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    7,478
    Likes Received:
    468
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Just kicking around thoughts in my head.

    Your thoughts upon applying, the sin concept of 1 Cor 5:1-5, especially V 5, to the sin of Judas situation?
     
    #52 percho, Jul 29, 2024
  13. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    20,125
    Likes Received:
    2,985
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Saints, being turned over to Satan, is solely for their correction and benefit, given that God grants them repentance.

    1 It is actually reported that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not even among the Gentiles, that one of you hath his father`s wife.
    5 to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Cor 5

    19 holding faith and a good conscience; which some having thrust from them made shipwreck concerning the faith:
    20 of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I delivered unto Satan, that they might be taught not to blaspheme. 1 Tim 1

    25 in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth,
    26 and they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his will. 2 Tim 2

    31 Simon, Simon, behold, Satan asked to have you, that he might sift you as wheat:
    32 but I made supplication for thee, that thy faith fail not; and do thou, when once thou hast turned again, establish thy brethren. Lu 22

    There was to be no correction for Judas, a devil. (you don't turn Satan over to Satan to be corrected).

    24 The Son of man goeth, even as it is written of him: but woe unto that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had not been born. Mt 26

    21 For the Son of man goeth, even as it is written of him: but woe unto that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had not been born. Mk 14

    22     For the Son of man indeed goeth, as it hath been determined: but woe unto that man through whom he is betrayed! Lu 22
     
    #53 kyredneck, Jul 30, 2024
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2024
    • Informative Informative x 1
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,247
    Likes Received:
    1,106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    1 Corinthians 3:1CEB
    Brothers and sisters, I couldn’t talk to you like spiritual people but like unspiritual people [people without the indwelt Spirit], like babies [immature Christians] in Christ.

    Paul used spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel, when he taught lost unregenerate people. To claim the unregenerate cannot understand and grow upon this spiritual thing is nonsense.

    John 6:65
    So Jesus added, "Because of this I told you that no one can trust in Me unless the Father has allowed him to believe.

    Obviously, since the lost have the innate ability to understand and grow when given spiritual milk, God simply allows them to believe unless He hardens their hearts for a purpose of His, such as to spread the gospel to lost Gentiles.
     
    #54 Van, Jul 31, 2024
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,247
    Likes Received:
    1,106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    John 6:65 (NASB)
    And He was saying, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

    John 6:65 (NIV)
    He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

    Now the Greek word translated as granted by the NASB, enabled by the NIV, and given by the KJV is "didōmi" (Strong's G1325). It means to give or let someone have something, and does not include in its meaning whether the one being given or allowed to obtain something is otherwise able to obtain it. Thus "enabled" is an agenda driven mistranslation.

    The idea based on the context of John 6:65 is a person cannot come to faith in Christ, unless God allows him or her to believe. Thus if God has chosen to harden a person's heart, as depicted in Romans 11, then that person cannot come to faith in Jesus.
     
    #55 Van, Jul 31, 2024
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 3 of 3
Loading...