The Rapture?

That is quite funny.

However my point still stands. Name me one Baptist that lived pre-1900 that endorsed the whole "Left Behind" type of rapture?

 

The “left behind” is a series of movies that started off showing peoples lives then where everyone that was saved just disappeared one day, emptying out cars, planes, taking away one mate and not the other and so forth and then showing the poor people that didn’t believe and were left behind missing the boat. Based on the any moment new wave rapture theory. Please!!!!

Some problems I see with the pre-trib “any moment” fly away rapture theory being taught from:

(1Th 4:16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Note: The Lord will descend (If that’s not the second coming what is it?), and the next verse says, “THEN” But yet the rapture is being taught to happen before the second coming?

Also 1 Th 4:16 talks about the second coming and the (already dead in the flesh, but in Christ) the reborn in the Spirit will rise first; why? Because they are already with Him “to be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord.”

And am I to understand that Jesus is coming back a third time? To make that alone fit seems pretty contradictory to God’s Word, but there is this contrived system to accomplish this eschatological teaching usually starting off with 1 Thessalonians 4:17 the verse everyone likes to use to show that we will “fly” away into the clouds.

(1Th 4:17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

First off, I think the clouds being spoken of here are a cloud of angels much like the idiom of a cloud of grasshoppers and has nothing to do with the sky. Ex Isa 60:8, 1 Th 3:13 clarifies that this is the time of the coming of the Lord with His saints.

The “air” that is being spoken of shows to be the “breath of life” (in the Spirit) and as we know from 1Co 15 you cannot be present with the Lord unless you are absent from this body (dead in the flesh) and alive in the Spirit, raised in an incorruptible body in the twinkling of an eye.

So the way I see it those that are dead in Jesus and the rest of us which remain that are ‘alive” (reborn in the Spirit) will be caught together up with the cloud of angels at the second coming.

The subject of 1 Thessalonians is; Where are the dead of the flesh?, which Paul was explaining to them and he said to comfort each other with these words, but many misunderstood and were troubled, Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians to explain things more clear, 2 Th 2:1-3, in which he also told them about the falling away first 2:3, then goes on to tells us not to worry, how it’s coming down, and to “stand fast” I don’t see him teaching them to fly off or assuring them they won’t be here having left before the second coming.

So what do these “any moment rapture theory” cornerstone verses have to do with proving a pre-trib rapture or flying away?

(Eze 13:20) Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

 

" the pre-trib “any moment” fly away rapture theory"
"
That's the theory Darby came up with in 1829. It has never caught on outside of those churches that have a thing for the Scofield reference Bible.

 

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <-- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Postrib pre-mill outline:

0. church age continues <-- you are here
2. Tribulation time
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Postrib a-mill outline:

0. church age continues - is the same as: <-- you are here
2. Tribulation time - is the same as: <-- you are here
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom <-- you are here
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
5. new heaven & new earth

Peterist a-mill outline:

0. church age continues <-- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection <done happened
2. Tribulation time <-- or maybe you are here
3. Second Advent of Jesus event <done happend
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom <done happened
5. new heaven & new earth <-- or maybe you are here

Ed recommends the pretrib pre-mill
view as aligning most nearly with Holy Scripture.
Ed recommends:
get Rapture Ready!
Stay Rapture Ready!

 

Interesting for something that Brother John
Darby developed from 1830-1870. Rather a reach
to say he developed it all in 1829.
I'd say he found a name "pretribulation rapture"
for the BIBLE CONCEPT, but it was more likely
in 1830.

Personally, i teach the pretribulation
rapture from the New Testament. The books
of the New Testament were
all written by 96AD when John wrote the last
book, Revelation. I was not born until 1943.
I became a pretribulation rapturist
in 1952. They didn't even use these three
scriptures as pretribulation scriptures
when i became a pretribulation rapturist.


The following was written by Ed (over a ten year period):
-----------------------------------------------
Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The time line according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The time line according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The time line according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

BTW, I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
in error, I'll still hope in the pre-tribulation rapture
as will 90% of Baptists and kindred Christians.

 

1. Please designate the Bible Version you
are using each time you cite a verse. Thank
you.

2. The cornerstone verses do not give the
timing. It is the whole building blocks that
together give the timing.

BTW, what does this have to do with
the rapture?

Ezekiel 13:20 (HCSB = The Holman Christian Standard Bible):

Therefore, this is what the Lord God says: I am against your [magic] bands that you ensnare people with like birds, and I will tear them from your arms. I will free the people you have ensnared like birds.

BTW, i might mention that "first"
and "second" have NOTHING to do with
"one and only one". Please show in the
Bible that there is "one and only one"
Second Coming of Jesus.

Then, if you can do that, you must further
show from the Bible,
that under no circumstances can
the Second Coming every consist of more than
one unique coming. God Himself is
a triune God -- 'triune' having to do with
the threeness of God and 'God Himself'
having to do with the oneness of God.
So sometimes we speak of the oneness of God;
sometimes we speak of the twoness of God;
sometimes we speak of the oneness of God.

And, even if by a miracle, you find verses
(Ezekiel 13:20 was pretty weak ) that
prove you can never think of the Second
Coming save in the singular, I'll ask you
how in light of the Millennial Kingdom of
our Lord and Savior: Messiah Iesus, you can
consider the coming for the rapture
of the saints before the Tribulation
and the coming to destroy the Antichrist
and set up the physical Millennial Kingdom
of Christ -- how are those a two different times?
Well maybe similitude isn't all that
simple, eh?

 

Ed
"Rather a reach
to say he developed it all in 1829."
"
I read somewhere that the first text written by Darby that mentions some form of pre-trib rapture was published in 1829.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 "And now ye know what restraineth that he (antichrist) might be revealed in his (antichrist) time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only HE WHO NOW HINDERETH (deity) will continue to hinder until he (deity) BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY. And THEN shall THAT WICKED ONE BE REVEALED (antichrist), whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming"

According to this passage, the Holy Spirit will be removed from this earth, THEN the antichrist will be revealed. Will we still be here? Not if Jesus was correct in saying that He would never leave us, nor forsake us. The only thing keeping this world together right now is the church, and the presence of the Holy Spirit within us.

Take that away, and you can only begin to imagine what the tribulation will be like, "...such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Matthew 24:21)"

I'm glad I won't be here!

 

Amen, I'm ready

Revelation 22:20 "He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming quickly."
Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!"

 

'Developed it all' is a far cry from
'some form of pre-trib'. Recall that the
side discussion of Darby is just that:
a side bar. I prove all my pre-tribulation
theories from the Holy Bible. The last book
in the New Testament, Revelation, was completed
in probably 96AD. I do not need to study 19th
(1801-1900) Century writers; i depend on
the New Testament of the Bible for my
pre-tribulation teaching/doctrine.

 

You also ready for this?

Rev 19:14 (KLJV1611 Edition):
And the armies which were in heauen
followed him vpon white horses,
clothed in fine linnen, white and cleane.

I can't ride a horse A miracle will
take place in my life between the pre-tribulation
rapture and the Glorious Second Coming --
i'll learn to ride a horse!.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 "And now ye know what restraineth that he (antichrist) might be revealed in his (antichrist) time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only HE WHO NOW HINDERETH (deity) will continue to hinder until he (deity) BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY. And THEN shall THAT WICKED ONE BE REVEALED (antichrist), whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming"

According to this passage, the Holy Spirit will be removed from this earth, THEN the antichrist will be revealed. Will we still be here? Not if Jesus was correct in saying that He would never leave us, nor forsake us. The only thing keeping this world together right now is the church, and the presence of the Holy Spirit within us.

Take that away, and you can only begin to imagine what the tribulation will be like, "...such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Matthew 24:21)"


Webdog the way I see it:
(KJV)
(2Th 2:6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

(2Th 2:7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

(2Th 2:8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

In verse 6 we know that Antichrist has been restrained and as part of God’s plan will be released and revealed.
Verse 7 This is not speaking of a departure of the Holy Spirit, but to a removal of God’s retraining power on Antichrist. If I’m here I will not be forsaken as I am in Christ being reborn in the Spirit and Antichrist will never take that away from me, he can do what he wants to me on my flesh body, but he can’t touch my spiritual body and I rest in that fact and the fact that Antichrist is going to get his, Verse 8.

Scary if we’re still hear huh? But it’s all part of God’s plan and we should remember that Paul told us not to get shook up or be deceived by any man, it’s got to happen.


(2Th 2:1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

(2Th 2:2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

(2Th 2:3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

If I’m here I’m going to stand up, stand firm and be a man of God setting an example; Not teaching people to fall away by flying off and join the Antichrist camp. Again what scares me is what will happen to those that will be deceived into believing this Antichrist that comes saying he is God, acting like God performing miracles and the whole ball of wax, and all these people start sprouting wings. We are called to be an example, not to hide behind fairy tails.

(1Ti 4:7) But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.

 

I think they do show the timing; at the descending or coming of Christ and I’ve seen some of your lengthy lists of building blocks for all the comings and goings and kingdoms and such and wouldn’t have the time to refute them going round and round trying to battle against training from a 200 year old scholarly developed and prepared system of defense. But, hey God uses the simple things doesn’t He and Him willing I am working on learning other approaches to shoot the wings off these wannabe birds; when and if I get there I’ll let you know.

If you’re talking about 1 Th 4:16-17 (cornerstone fly away verses) you got me. You quoted them; I hear them all the time as proof text of how the fly away rapture is proven from the Word.

If you’re talking about Ezekiel 13:20; A little off subject, but I just felt like throwing that in and the Strongs Concordance does say, “specifically to fly (as extending the wings) I like the KJV better.

Ezekiel 13:20 (HCSB = The Holman Christian Standard Bible):

Therefore, this is what the Lord God says: I am against your [magic] bands that you ensnare people with like birds, and I will tear them from your arms. I will free the people you have ensnared like birds.

KJV:
(Eze 13:20) Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

Magic bands-developed strings from Darby, soft pillows to fall on-escape, A prophesied secret hidden system being developed and revealed to trap people into thinking they’re birds----Birds, flying, flying birds, butterflies, whatever…….Sounds like a warning to me about one of the Antichrist’s plans…….Watch out for a giant bug zapper.

BTW, thanks for spelling out the abbreviations

 

Originally posted by servant-96

Because, the pre-trib “any moment” fly away rapture theory must have been a “secret” as it didn’t develop until supposedly being revealed by a little girl (Margaret McDonald) while prophesizing and speaking in tongues and then picked up on by scholars who turned it into a theological system of eschatology about 200 years ago. Guess the people before that weren’t watching!?

Anyway, this debatable subject has nothing to do with finding the truth in God’s Word and is only used as a jab so I will try not to use the word “secret” for that purpose as I consider it a waste of time.

 

Because, the pre-trib “any moment” fly away rapture theory must have been a “secret” as it didn’t develop until supposedly being revealed by a little girl (Margaret McDonald) while prophesizing and speaking in tongues and then picked up on by scholars who turned it into a theological system of eschatology about 200 years ago. Guess the people before that weren’t watching!?

Anyway, this debatable subject has nothing to do with finding the truth in God’s Word and is only used as a jab so I will try not to use the word “secret” for that purpose as I consider it a waste of time. </font>[/QUOTE]2Th 2:11(KJV1611 Edition):
And for this cause God shall send
them strong delusion, that they should
beleeue a lye:

I find this so strange. Bro. Benjamin has
NOT even been talking to me. He is using
arguments of others that have been used against
others. I chose the 'lie' verse cause
the Margaret McDonald story is a lie. People
who retell the Margaret McDonald story are
lie mongers. I've studied the history of
the Margaret McDonald story. It must have
started in the 1950s and was started by
post-tribulationists. So while the
post-tribulationists claim pre-tribulationists
started in the 1830s, i claim that
post-tribulationsts started in the 1950s.
Please abandon the Margaret McDonald story
lie and talk to me. Thank you.

I claimed that i teach ALL my pre-tribulation
doctrine from the Holy Bible. I've presented
part of the doctrine the Holy Spirit gave
to me. Nobody challanged that the
pre-tribulation doctrine didn't come from
the Holy Bible (BTW, all the Holy Bible has
been written for over 1900 years now).
Hardly any body disputes elements of my
teaching. Please talk to me. Thank you.

BTW, the calling of Margaret McDonald as a
'little girl' gives a dead give away as
to the 1970s source of the story about her.
She was born in 1815, so was 15 years old
in 1830. Most people reserve 'little girl'
for pre-teens.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. The cornerstone verses do not give the timing. It is the whole building blocks that
together give the timing.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Benjamin: "I think they do show the timing;
at the descending or coming of Christ ...

Amen, Brother Benjamin -- Preach it!

The Second Coming of Jesus is a seven-year wide
knife cutting history into two parts.
At the beginning of the Second Coming of Jesus, He will
gather His saints together; at the end of the Second
Coming of Jesus, He will dispense with the Antichrist
and the Antichrist's people, the marked ones.

Consider the 'Day of the Lord'.
what does 'day' mean? Feel free to us your Dictionary
if you don't know all 9 to 12 meanings.
I've seen no dictionary with the 48-hour earth day described.
At one point on the earth, a particular date (like 26 May 2005)
will last 24-hours. But there are 24 time zones on the earth.
So a particular date lasts 48-hour from the time it begins
west of the International Date Line until it ends east
of the International Date Line. So really the
dictionaries should list 10 to 23 meanings

 

Brother Ed
"Recall that the
side discussion of Darby is just that:
a side bar. I prove all my pre-tribulation
theories from the Holy Bible."
"
Clearly the pre-trib rapture can be distilled very well out of Scripture. But it isn't obvious and there are plenty alternative explanations that are also feasable. That's why it took something like 17 centuries before someone dug it out for the first time.

 

Because, the pre-trib “any moment” fly away rapture theory must have been a “secret” as it didn’t develop until supposedly being revealed by a little girl (Margaret McDonald) while prophesizing and speaking in tongues and then picked up on by scholars who turned it into a theological system of eschatology about 200 years ago. Guess the people before that weren’t watching!?

Anyway, this debatable subject has nothing to do with finding the truth in God’s Word and is only used as a jab so I will try not to use the word “secret” for that purpose as I consider it a waste of time. </font>[/QUOTE]2Th 2:11(KJV1611 Edition):
And for this cause God shall send
them strong delusion, that they should
beleeue a lye:

I find this so strange. Bro. Benjamin has
NOT even been talking to me. He is using
arguments of others that have been used against
others. I chose the 'lie' verse cause
the Margaret McDonald story is a lie. People
who retell the Margaret McDonald story are
lie mongers. I've studied the history of
the Margaret McDonald story. It must have
started in the 1950s and was started by
post-tribulationists. So while the
post-tribulationists claim pre-tribulationists
started in the 1830s, i claim that
post-tribulationsts started in the 1950s.
Please abandon the Margaret McDonald story
lie and talk to me. Thank you.

I claimed that i teach ALL my pre-tribulation
doctrine from the Holy Bible. I've presented
part of the doctrine the Holy Spirit gave
to me. Nobody challanged that the
pre-tribulation doctrine didn't come from
the Holy Bible (BTW, all the Holy Bible has
been written for over 1900 years now).
Hardly any body disputes elements of my
teaching. Please talk to me. Thank you.

BTW, the calling of Margaret McDonald as a
'little girl' gives a dead give away as
to the 1970s source of the story about her.
She was born in 1815, so was 15 years old
in 1830. Most people reserve 'little girl'
for pre-teens. </font>[/QUOTE]I’m not dissing you bro; I’m just not prepared to debate every one of the different subjects that come up or don’t have the time. I certainly don’t have tens years worth of prepared statements; I just learned how to turn this computer on 1 ½ years ago.

You’re right I did grab onto that word “secret” that was used earlier in the tread and then bit my tongue when servant-96 asked me why I was using it because I don’t even care to go there. I was just giving him explanation of why the word was being used. The sarcasm about the little girl just slipped out. That’s what happens when you listen to and repeat gossip.

I’m glad that the Holy Bible is your ultimate authority; mine too.

I’ve checked out many of your elements of teaching and when it comes to the timing and other things we’re going to have a lot to talk about someday. Swift to hear, then searching diligently and slow to speak….

Anyway, I’m leaving in the morning to travel to Illinois and visit relatives. I’ll be taking my Bible and my new book of “Basic Theology by Ryrie” with me; hopefully I won’t burn my new book before I return.

 

&lt;&lt;&lt;In verse 6 we know that Antichrist has been restrained and as part of God’s plan will be released and revealed.
Verse 7 This is not speaking of a departure of the Holy Spirit, but to a removal of God’s retraining power on Antichrist.&gt;&gt;&gt;

The use of the pronoun "he" in verse 6 is clear that someONE is hindering and will continue to hinder until HE is taken out of the way. Is there a man on earth who can control satan? Who then could be the only possible explantation for the "He" in verse 6? Which member of the Trinity is left here on earth to "hinder" the antichrist's arrival? Has to be the Holy Spirit, and if He is removed, we are outta here, my friend, because God would not do that to his children.

I like to think of it in this analogy. I know that a terrorist will be at my daughter's college tomorrow which is out of state. Would I, first, not tell my daughter what I know, and second, not drive there and get her and bring her home to avoid the horrible situation? We are God's children living on campus in an "out of state school". God has told us what to expect, and He will come and get me.

The only two storie Jesus used to explain the end time tribulation period were the story of the Flood, and Sodom and Gammorah. In both instances the righteous were taken out of the situation and saved.