confused about Calvin (Page 21) Round two

Me4him and Standing firm, well done.

 

I am trying to keep the topic on total depravity but you two keep running from it. You seem more interested in makeing God a sinner then really discussing bible truth. You have ignored so much that is shows twice you are not interested in honest debate. Just in your calvinistic doctrine at all Cost!

 

Johnp I am not getting equal respect here. I am answering you two while you ignore mine. How about a little respond on my questions.


By the way Jesus prayed for the lost and wept over them too.

 

Don't expect an answer, when there isn't one.

 

I love your shoot and run approach.

Your dishonesty shows in the following...

I would point to the year I registered. Hardly "year after year". If you can't play nice, don't play.
BTW, false doctrine showed to me "over and over, year after year" is still false doctrine. I will not be swayed by man's teaching that is contrary to Scripture. The JW's try this same approach.

 

What question have I left unanswered?

What questions have you?

JN 17:9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. [Who does He not pray for?]

JN 17:6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. [Who has He revealed Himself to?]

JN 17:14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. [Who are not part of the world?]

john. </font>[/QUOTE](Joh 1:7) The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

(Joh 1:8) He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

(Joh 1:9) That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.


(Mat 5:11) Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

(Mat 5:12) Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

 

WHY does Jesus tell us to pray for sinners when he would not???

Mt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Did God "Fulfill the law" and LOVE all sinners as he commanded us, or did he "hate some"??

Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Yes, you certainly do,

Did someone take a "magic marker" and "blot out" all the verses in your bible except those that support Calvin, if not, they should have,

they're of little or no benefit to the doctrine of Calvin???

 

But what motivates some to accept it while others remain non-receptive?

Are those who receive better? Smarter? Wiser?

Why do those who believe do so?

This is the inescapable problem of all of your arguments... you ultimately either have to abandon your system or acknowledge that it bases salvation on some amount of individual merit. </font>[/QUOTE]The "Free Gift" came upon "ALL MEN",...IF...they'll accept it.

Is your reading comprehesion really "that bad"?? </font>[/QUOTE]Is yours? Apparently.

I didn't ask anything that is accurately answered by what you posted above. Yes, the free gift came upon all men (I think we both believe that is something other than universalism). "IF...they'll accept it"... Agreed but still not an answer.

The question is why do some accept it while others do not?

At this point, you are either being obtuse or intentionally evasive/deceptive.

 

Wrong, webdog. You guys make such a big deal over "free WILL." Will means desire, not works. John 1 says they were born NOT OF THE WILL (DESIRE) OF THE FLESH (HUMAN NATURE) NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN.

It is pure eisegesis to say that because it doesn't fit you theological system that will all of a sudden means works. We are born of the will of God, not of man. </font>[/QUOTE]Again, you fit only one meaning of the word "will".
Will
WILL, n. [See the Verb.]

1. That faculty of the mind by which we determine either to do or forbear an action; the faculty which is exercised in deciding, among two or more objects, which we shall embrace or pursue. The will is directed or influenced by the judgment. The understanding or reason compares different objects, which operate as motives; the judgment determines which is preferable, and the will decides which to pursue. In other words, we reason with respect to the value or importance of things; we then judge which is to be preferred; and we will to take the most valuable. These are but different operations of the mind, soul, or intellectual part of man. Great disputes have existed respecting the freedom of the will. Will is often quite a different thing from desire.

A power over a mans subsistence, amounts to a power over his will.

2. Choice; determination. It is my will to prosecute the trespasser.

3. Choice; discretion; pleasure.

Go, then, the guilty at thy will chastise.

4. Command; direction.

Our prayers should be according to the will of God.

5. Disposition; inclination; desire. What is your will, Sir? In this phrase, the word may also signify determination, especially when addressed to a superior.

6. Power; arbitrary disposal.

Deliver me not over to the will of my enemies. Psa 27.

7. Divine determination; moral purpose or counsel.

Thy will be done. Lords Prayer.

8. Testament; the disposition of a mans estate, to take effect after his death. Wills are written, or nuncupative, that is, verbal.

Good will,

1. Favor; kindness.

2. Right intention. Phil 1.

Ill will, enmity; unfriendliness. It expresses less than malice.

To have ones will, to obtain what is desired.

At will. To hold an estate at the will of another, is to enjoy the possession at his pleasure, and be liable to be ousted at any time by the lessor or proprietor.

Will with a wisp, Jack with a lantern; ignis fatuus; a luminous appearance sometimes seen in the air over moist ground, supposed to proceed from hydrogen gas.

WILL, v.t. [G., L., Gr. The sense is to set, or to set forward, to stretch forward. The sense is well expressed by the L.]

1. To determine; to decide int he mind that something shall be done or forborne; implying power to carry the purpose into effect. In this manner God wills whatever comes to pass. So in the style of princes; we will that execution be done.

A man that sits still is said to be at liberty, because he can walk if he will it.

2. To command; to direct.

Tis yours, O queen! To will the work which duty bids me to fulfill.

3. To be inclined or resolved to have.

There, there, Hortensio, will you any wife?

4. To wish; to desire. What will you?

5. To dispose of estate and effects by testament.

6. It is sometimes equivalent to may be. Let the circumstances be what they will; that is, any circumstances, of whatever nature.

7. Will is used as an auxiliary verb, and a sign of the future tense. It has different signification in different persons.

1. I will go, is a present promise to go; and with an emphasis on will, it expresses determination.

2. Thou wilt go, you will go, express foretelling; simply stating an event that is to come.

3. He will go, is also a foretelling. The use of will in the plural, is the same. We will, promises; ye will, they will, foretell.

I don't argue that salvation is the "desire" of God, and not man. This is in fact what the text is saying, just not in the way you are saying it.

 

while i do agree with the fact that the word 'will' is the word 'desire', it also can mean 'be inclined to'. 'Be inclined to' implies that man has free will.

I also have to look at the 'whosoever'. It is from the Greek word 'hostis' which means 'any that'. When one looks at the scriptures that say 'whosoever will' and sees them as 'any that desire' or 'any that are inclined to', one can see free will is definitely mentioned in the Bible.

 

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

"MEN" have a "CHOICE", that's why some accept it, others don't, it's called "FREE WILL" to serve whoever they chose to serve.

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Even if calvin was a 100% correct, the damage it's done to "reading comprehension" would justify discarding it.

 

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.</font>[/QUOTE] When or where did I say that men didn't love darkness or choose to reject the gospel? I didn't and you know it since we have been through it repeatedly now.

Having a choice is NEVER the reason for choosing one way or the other. That plainly speaking is an innane assertion by you. It is completely and totally non-sensical to say a person chooses A or B because they have a choice. Either choice will have a reason beyond just simply "having a choice".

You are just continuing to evade knowing that offering a real answer that is biblical will force you to abandon your man glorifying system of belief.

This scripture is a statement of fact... not an explanation of cause.

I read fine. It is you that must feign not understanding language and logic in order to avoid answering a relevant, direct question with a legitimate, meaningful, direct answer.

 

First of all, I should have been more precise. The word "will" is assumed in conjunction with God in John 1:13. Literally, it says, "but of God," not "but of the WILL of God." So, the actual meaning of the word "will" here is insignificant.

Secondly, you give very nice examples of the different ways the English word "will" is used here. However, it is the Greek word that matters.

According to the Friberg Greek Lexicon:
generally, as the result of what one has decided will; (1) objectively will, design, purpose, what is willed; (a) used predominately of what God has willed: creation (RV 4.11), redemption (EP 1.5), callings (CO 1.9), etc.; (b) of what a person intends to bring about by his own action purpose (LU 22.42); (c) of one's sensual or sexual impulse desire (JN 1.13; EP 2.3); (d) of what a person intends to bring about through the action of another purpose (LU 12.47); (2) subjectively act of willing or wishing; (a) predominately of the exercise of God's will (GA 1.4); (b) of the exercise of the human will desire, wish (2P 1.21)

According to Thayers Greek Lexicon:
a word purely Biblical and ecclesiastical (yet found in Aristotle, de plant. 1, 1, p. 815b, 21); the Septuagint: will, i. e., what one wishes or has determined shall be done (i. e. objectively, thing willed)

This is what the word means. So, once again, being born here is not because of the will (desire, wish, determination) of the flesh, nor of the will (desire, wish, determination) of man, but of [the will (desire, wish, determination)] of God.

 

johnp.,

Aren't you being a bit arrogant in that statement? Do you belong to some "elite" group that is better than everybody else? I would say to you:
"Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." 1 Cor. 10:12