1 Peter 2:13&14

Dear C4K,

I noticed that you are in Ireland.
I can't tell if you are an American living in Ireland or an Irish citizen or have some other status.

But just in case didn't know, Walls and I were using the language of the Declaration of Independence from the British Crown.

This document is a secular document and not meant to be an exegesis of Scripture.
Notice it says that these unalienable rights are "self-evident". It does not say "according to Scripture"

So allow me to re-phrase my statement.

According to the founding fathers of our nation we have the self-evident and unalienable right from our Creator to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

This does not depend on whether that citizen is a Christian or not. Other documents further define the limits of these rights. One limit being that the exercise of these rights do not infringe upon the rights of others.

I am not sure just what your original objection was. The limitation of these rights is a given.
I hope you did not think I meant that this document allows for a society of anarchy.

HankD

 

Hank,

I appreciate your thoughts. I am an American citizen living abroad. The origin of this thread was a question about two passages dealing with obedience to the government about which there really can be no question.

I am well aware of the Declaration of Independence being a PolySci major (too many ;) ) years ago. I have started another thread under the History Forum to discuss the Declaration and its statements.

The DOI can not excuse civil disobedience. Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness cannot override scripture. Jefferson was a Deist who did not believe that Paul's epsitles were scripture. The passages mentioned are clear in their teaching that God established governments to be obeyed. Even Paul, under one of the most opresive governments ever to exist saw that need.

I was hoping that your "ok" was not your last post in the topic. Thanks for coming back with a fuller explanation of your feelings.

 

Thanks and I agree with your view concerning governments and that they are to be obeyed.

There is another parameter which IMO limits this obedience.

Acts 5:29b ...We ought to obey God rather than men.

Where would you personally draw the line between Caesar and God?

For instance, does 1 Peter 2:13-14 relieve the Christian citizens of the atheistic Red Chinese government which forbids freedom of religion from the exhoratation:

Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is...

HankD

 

Hank,

Have a look back at my previous posts in this thread. You are on target here - when law is in direct violation of the Word of God we must obey God. See Hanaiah, Mishael, and Azariah. When told to bow to the idol they refused. The state punished them with an attempt at capital punishment in the fiery furnace. The state had the right to carry out the punishment for the "crime" of not bowing. But here God intervened.

Here is the clearest example of how God's people deal with laws which violate the Word of God - "Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter. If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up." (Daniel 3:16-18 KJV)

If we choose civil disobedience in response to unbiblical legislation we must be willing to leave the results up to God.

 

Yes it does. Romans 13 may shed more light on this.

God placed governments (kings, presidents, legislatures, etc.) in charge of a soverign, so as members of that soverign we must obey UNLESS it DIRECTLY violates God's will in the Bible. Then we acqueisce to God.

Speeding is not mentioned in the Bible, but if the State Law tells us to drive 30 mi/hr. down main street, by God's command we must obey. Otherwise, we are sinning.

 

Jamal, do you believe that God "ordained" the husband to be the head of the household? To give final answer to God for the actions and decisions of those who reside in his home?

Thanks ------Bart

 

Agreed.

HankD