A question for the Calvinists

Pretty much what I believe the bible teaches. Its as simple as that.

Darren

 

Well, we really shouldn't argue about how long this process takes, no one knows, and that is not what is important. I myself believe that the moment a person believes they receive the Spirit and it is all pretty much an instantaneous thing.

Where I differ with you is that I believe a person dead in sins can believe. And Ephesians 1:13 agrees with this. It says a person first hears the gospel, then believes, then receives the Spirit. And this verse is very specific about the order of events and contains the word "after" twice.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

There's no getting around this verse. There is not another verse in the Bible that is so specific and detailed about the order of events in salvation. If you think there is, I would love to see it.

If a person does not receive the Spirit until after believeing, then that person had to be spiritually dead when they believed.

You may not like that, but that is what the scriptures clearly say.

And there are several examples of people who believed and did not receive the Spirit until later. Paul was an example. He first heard God's word when Jesus spoke to him on the road to Damascus. He believed. But he did not receive the Holy Spirit until days later.

Acts 9:9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

You may not like it, but Paul heard the Lord speak and believed three days before he received the Holy Spirit.

 

"...give examples of a person being regenerated to believe first."

You mean post 148? -

That doesn't prove regeneration precedes faith. It certainly and definately does not relate to an OC explanation either. As I said before no one has been able to prove regeneration precedes faith from the OC/OT therefore there is no case to make for the NT/NC. Simple as that.

Darren

 

I don't know exactly what your point is. IF the Holy Spirit is not in them they are not God's and therefore not part of the new convenant. There is no such thing as a christian that does not have the indwelling HS, so I make no case as to the "after" as there is no premise to think that a christian can be a non HS indwelled christian even for any period of time.

Darren

 

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......Jn 3:36

.....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...Jn5:24

... He that believeth hath eternal life. Jn 6:47

It shows that life precedes belief. If you were to persuade one to believe in Christ, well, the Spirit's already been there and made that person alive so that they could believe. Note, it doesn't say he that believes will get eternal life; it says he that believes has it already.

No, it clearly states nothing of the sort. In no way does this disprove life before action.

It's also clearly stated that I've been crucified with Christ; and raised together with Christ; and made joint-heirs with Christ; and my life is hid with Christ; and have been made to sit in the heavenly places with Christ.

It is a mistake to confuse the gift of the Holy Ghost, i.e. the baptism of the Spirit, the clothing with power from on high, the sending of the comforter, which came on the Day of Pentecost, with the work of the Spirit in regeneration. The two are not the same. The former was a special ministration of the Spirit and a gift to the infant church which enabled it to grow and spread and to conduct it's warfare “against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.” This ministration of the Spirit was the ONLY reason that the gates of hell did not prevail against the church. The work of the Spirit in regeneration had been around long before the Day of Pentecost.

 

It doesn't show life precedes belief and you just refuted yourself - it says he that believes has it already. Exactly thats the whole point, he that believes has everlasting life, present tense.

No kidding. And...?? The fact that one is believing means they HAVE eternal life but it is not a verse you can use to prove the condition before and up to the point before they started to believe. Otherwise you MUST logically say I had eternal life before I believed... Since when?? The verses you quote are for believers not unbelievers. Its as simple as that.

He that is believing NOT on the Son hath eternal life;......Jn 3:36??? Does that make sense??

Darren

 

Yes, that is amazing how you turn these verses around to say exactly the opposite of what they really say.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

What comes first here, receiving and believeing on Christ, or God giving them the power (the Holy Spirit) to become the sons of God?

You must first hear the word of God and receive or believe it. Only then does God give the Holy Spirit. You are not regenerated until you receive the Spirit.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

You can't have faith until you first hear the word of God, and you can't receive the Holy Spirit until after you believe which requires faith.

And verse Rom 10:14 shows you can't call on Jesus unless you believe, and you can't possibly believe unless you have first heard of him.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that (#1)heareth my word, and (#2)believeth on him that sent me,(#3)hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall (#1)hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that (#2)hear shall (#3)live.

There it is, plain as day in vs. 24, you must hear and believe. And it is made absolutely clear in the very next verse when Jesus said the hour is coming, AND NOW IS, when the DEAD shall HEAR the voice of the Son of God: and they that HEAR shall live.

Calvinists don't like this because it proves their doctrine error, but Jesus himself said the dead can hear his voice, and those that hear (which means to receive or believe) will live.

Once again, the order you will always see in scripture.

1) You must hear the word of God
2) You must believe
3) You receive the Holy Spirit and are quickened or regenerated.

 

More scripture showing this order.

Acts 2:37 Now when they (#1)heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, (#2)Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, (#3)and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Were they saved when they heard the word of God and their heart was convicted? No, else Peter would have not needed to tell them to repent. And what does Peter say will happen if they repent? They will receive the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Were they saved or regenerated when they heard Peter preaching the word of God? No, because Peter told them to "save themselves" which also shows man plays a part in his own salvation. You really don't believe Peter under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit would teach false doctrine do you? And then it shows those who gladly received his word (believed) were added to the church.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

Here Peter had just preached a long sermon. Were the people saved? No, because Peter told them to repent. And what does Peter say will happen if they repent and believe? That God will send Jesus (the Holy Spirit) to them.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Here these people heard Philip preaching and then believed. But none had yet received the Holy Spirit until Peter and John came down later and laid hands on them.

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Here Peter had preached to Cornelius and his family. And when they believed the word of God the Holy Ghost fell on them.

So these are all examples showing the order of events in salvation, first you hear the word of God, then believe, then receive the Spirit.

 

Amazing everytime I come to this board how you all, with the exception of some, would call Christ Redeemer, his Savior, the Annointed One, and yet insist that Christ NEVER DID SAVE ANYONE despite the blood shed, the torn flesh, the empty tomb, and the testimony of Gabriel that His Name shall be called Jesus FOR HE SHALL SAVE HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SIN.

You are right in that Peter, under inspiration of the Holy Ghost, will not teach false doctrine, though, because he is NOT IN ANYWAY implying that we those he was speaking to could save themselves in the way Christ ALREADY saved His people from eternal damnation.

Read the gospels and the Bible very carefully with Christ as the centerpiece, His work a FINISHED work, the theological or credal contexts in which those He came to save AT THE TIME He came were, and perhaps you will understand more clearly how it is that not every instance of "save yourselves" pertain to eternal redemption but to earthly or timely circumstance.

 

No, what's really amazing here is how you conveniently leave off the rest of the sentence which exposes the error of the Arminian theology, and supports regeneration before belief:

13 who were born, not of blood [not of superior human descent such as the Jews believed], nor of the will of the flesh [not because of the individual's choice], nor of the will of man [not because someone persuaded the individual], but of God.

Those receiving Him (v 12) were first born of God (v 13).

I quote from Jamieson, Fausset and Brown's Commentary concerning the 13th verse:

 

There is so much wrong with that, I don't know where to begin.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

If you are correct, and God first regerates a man to receive Christ (which is explained further as believeing on him), then you are teaching that a man who has already been made alive by Christ needs to be born again.

Why would somebody who is already spirtually alive need to receive Christ? Why would God have to give them the power to become the sons of God if they are already born of God?

You got part of that right. No one is saved through the blood. John the Baptist showed that no one was saved because they were the physical descendent of Abraham.

Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

But when verse 13 says we were not born of the will of the flesh, or the will of man, it is not saying that man's will is not involved in salvation. It is saying that the Gospel, the method that God has chosen to save man was wholly God's idea and plan and man played no part in it.

And very experience shows this. Look at all the religions in the world, what do they teach? Except for true Christianity they all teach that a man can earn his way to heaven by his own efforts.

There are really only two religions in the world, those who trust in Christ, and those who trust in their own goodness or works.

Man, if left to himself to devise a method of salvation will ALWAYS without fail choose works. And the history of religion proves this.

Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

So, give man his way and he will always choose works. Even some who call themselves Christian feel they have to add works to God's simple plan of salvation. They will say you have to be baptized to be saved, or go to church on Saturday, or keep the law.

This is the most difficult part of salvation, getting a man to trust Jesus Christ alone. Some call those who preach that a person only need believe on Christ to be saved of "easy believeism". They say it is easy, but it is not easy for them, they always have to add something extra to the Gospel.

Without God's word, neither you, nor I, nor anyone else would ever dream up the idea of God himself coming to the world and being born in the flesh under the law, going to the cross bearing our sins, and rising from the dead.

So the Gospel, the plan and method of salvation is 100% God's idea and 100% of his will alone. That is what verse 13 is saying.

Isa 64:4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

1 Cor 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

 

And a little more.

Here is my problem (well, one, I have many) with the Calvinistic teaching that man is regenerated by God to believe. This may sound a little silly, but bear with me.

One day you are walking down the street. You are unsaved. You have no real interest in God or the scriptures, and the little you have heard you disagree with. None of it makes the least bit of sense to you, you cannot understand it at all, it is just foolish jibberish as far as you are concerned. You do not really believe God even exists, because science has proved that we all evolved billions of years ago. The Bible is just a book of myths written by ignorant superstitious men thousands of years ago.

Then suddenly everything changes. You suddenly feel a deep need to seek God. You are not really sure why. You cannot explain this change in your disposition. But it is real.

OK, here's my question. Are you saved now? Or do you need to hear the gospel and accept Jesus as your saviour? What if you do not hear the gospel for another two weeks? Are you saved until then? Are you born again before you hear the gospel?

You see, John 1:12 says God gave the power to become the sons of God to those who believe. But how can you be regenerated to believe unless you have something to believe in?

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

You see, the Bible clearly teaches you must first hear the gospel, then believe. And only after hearing the gospel and believeing do you receive the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

I am going to keep posting Eph 1:13. That is God's word and it is not going to go away no matter how much you persist in teaching that God regenerates a man and then he believes. That is not what the scriptures say.

 

I know you were addressing kyredneck but let me share my input, fwiw.
Your problem stems from the fact that like many on this board YOU DO NOT BELIEVE that Jesus, and Jesus alone, His FINISHED work, and that work alone, redeemed and saved all his elect people before they were even regenerates, and those who believe do so because they were regenerated already, or are regenerates, and because they are regenerates they are the ones who have been given authority to be sons of God, read authority as rightful.
That is what John 1:12 is saying.
I say you do not believe because to you salvation is a possibility, a future event that depends, NOT ON THE FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST AND HIS SHED BLOOD, but on the ability of the sinner to come to terms with himself, his sin, and having come to terms, apart from the regenerating work of the Spirit, to turn to Christ.
On the other hand kyredneck, myself, and some more on this board believe, teach, and hold that the eternal salvation and redemption of God's people, whoever they are, wherever they are, whenever in time they existed, is finished, done, complete, a reality to be heralded in the gospel sense to all whose ears and hearts the Spirit has prepared and whose scale covered eyes the Spirit has opened, in regeneration.
These are the ones who will believe and rejoice in their salvation and believing will turn to Christ and Christ only, and THAT, by the way, is the thrust and concept of Romans 10 which you just quoted.
I would suggest reading Romans 10 from its first verse and you will not but see that the flow of Paul's thoughts were not for salvation of the people of God among the Jews for eternity but salvation FROM JUDAISM and teaching them about and pointing them TO Christianity whose Savior ALREADY accomplished what they are trying to accomplish thru the laws, rituals, commandments, and traditions in Judaism.

 

Your post is completely out of line, slanderous...and quite false.

 

Winman,

I'll deal with the Ephesians passage later. There is a non-sequitur line of thinking in your example and question.

First, your question: No, a person is not saved until he believes in Christ. A person cannot believe in Christ unless someone shares the Gospel.

In your example you write: "You have no real interest in God or the scriptures, and the little you have heard you disagree with. None of it makes the least bit of sense to you, you cannot understand it at all, it is just foolish jibberish as far as you are concerned"

Here is why this does not follow: You ask a question assuming the person is absolutely ignorant of the Gospel yet you give an example where the person is clearly not ignorant of the Gospel. He may have little exposure to it, but he is not ignorant.

So the premise you are arguing for (and quoting Romans 10 to bolster) is a false premise.

No Calvinist I know would ever say that people are saved without the preaching of the Gospel in some form (eg. print media, aural reception, etc.).

Again, your understanding of the Calvinist position is not accurate. I'd encourage you to refine your example and then ask a different question.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Why ? ...........
Slanderous is from Slander.
The Legal Dictionary defines slander as :

Main Entry: slan·der
Pronunciation: 'slan-d&r
Function: transitive verb
: to utter slander against —slan·der·er noun

Main Entry: slander
Function: noun
Etymology: Anglo-French esclandre, from Old French escandle esclandre scandal, from Late Latin scandalum moral stumbling block, disgrace, from Greek skandalon, literally, snare, trap
1 : defamation of a person by unprivileged oral communication made to a third party; also : defamatory oral statements
2 : the tort of oral defamation slander> —compare DEFAMATION, FALSE LIGHT, LIBEL
NOTE: An action for slander may be brought without alleging and proving special damages if the statements in question have a plainly harmful character, as by imputing to the plaintiff criminal guilt, serious sexual misconduct, or conduct or a characteristic affecting his or her business or profession. —slan·der·ous /'slan-d&-r&s/ adjective —slan·der·ous·ly adverb —slan·der·ous·ness noun
Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Where then, webdog, is the slander ?
Since you accused me, prove it.

And false, by whose definition.
Yours ?

 

I say you do not believe because to you salvation is a possibility, a future event that depends, NOT ON THE FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST AND HIS SHED BLOOD, but on the ability of the sinner to come to terms with himself, his sin, and having come to terms, apart from the regenerating work of the Spirit, to turn to Christ.

 

Looks like my addition to the question did not get to you on time.

So, that was slander ?

I merely pointed out what he believes. Take a look at his post again.

Now, webdog, tell me, since you also I think believe the same way, where is absolute, total, unwavering belief on the finished work of salvation and the shed blood of Christ at the cross in those statements ?
Have I slandered him ? Have I presented him in such a way that it maligns him ?
Twice he reiterated that those who heard Peter were NOT SAVED.
Who then did Christ die for on that cross ?
Nobody ?

 

That is the most bizare claim I have heard, does anyone else actually believe that? All anyone has to do is cross reference and hold romans into the context of the rest of the scriptures to understand what Paul was refering to. Salvation from Judaism (but not for Gentiles??.... huh??), that's too weird.....

Darren

 

You have to understand that Pinoy holds to the Primtive Baptist view point in which man is born saved (this they refer to as eternal salvation) regardless of faith but is due to election. Thus many unbelievers will be in heaven based upon God's election and not faith.

Temporal salvation refers to those who have heard the gospel and believed however their having faith or not has absolutely no effect on their eternal state but it does on their temporal life here.

With this in mind, I 'am assuming' he is meaning that 'christianity' (a way of life, not eternal salvation) came through Judaism but Judaism was only pointing toward the christain way of life that released them from the trapping of trying to obtain salvation.