My question is in no way hypothetical so all these cautions are unnecessary and in my opinion, a needless distraction from the subject.
Scriptures are clear Adam died as a result of sinning. I am examining that truth as revealed in scriptures in greater detail without no speculation whatsoever
Adam versus believers
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Agent47, Oct 29, 2020.
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So God created a spiritually dead creature in His image?
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What did we have BEFORE that point in time seeing we never had eternal life?
Would you say Adam was spiritually dead before he sinned? -
spiritually, dead, alive
Is the Hebrew and or Greek for those words used relative to one another anywhere in scripture? -
No. I wouldn't say he was spiritually dead prior to his transgression.
Before Adam sinned he was in fellowship with God and "upright". This is how people have defined "spiritual life". It is relational.
But I also believe Adam did not have a spiritual life of his own (ontological). God is and always has been the Life, not Adam.
So I would say that before Adam sinned he was flesh and without sin, in communion with God. After Adam sinned he remained flesh, his eyes were opened, physical death became certain, and he was no longer in communion with God but a slave to sin and death. -
This is the most confusing response I have seen. Maybe it’s me.
Let’s not talk about how “people have defined” and let’s talk about YOU.
“Spiritual life” is relational you say. Is this a belief you hold?
How was the relational “spiritual life” Adam had different from what a believer has?
saying God is life is not different from saying God is Love. It’s a philosophical or metaphorical statement meaning God is the origin of life and full of love respectively. The statement is unhelpful in this context. -
What does this say?
" Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." ( John 5:24 ). -
Define "spiritual life".
That is the biggest problem here. People use extra-biblical terms as if they were in the Bible because they sound "spiritual". But they often do not define these terms.
If you are able to define "spiritual life" then I can give you a clear answer. -
Sorry Sir, but I thought I already distinguished between Adam's relationship with God, not under the New Covenant, and a redeemed individual"s "eternal life" relationship. Remember when Adam was created with a relationship with God, the Lamb of God had already been chosen to restore the fallen to a relationship of eternal life. Thus God at least "anticipated" Adam's relationship would not be eternal, before Adam was created.
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Romans 1:18-32.
Romans 5:12.
Romans 5:19.
Ephesians 2:1-3.
Ephesians 4:17-19.
Would you say that people were spiritually alive before God caused them to be born again, or spiritually dead in their trespasses and sins?
To you, what is it to be spiritually dead, or "dead in trespasses and sins"?
Finally,
what Scriptures do you see as describing what being "born again" actually means? -
Not at all. There is an order of events. It does seem that you have a problem understanding this.
God created Adam and Eve His image and good, Genesis 1:26-27, Genesis 1:31.
Genesis 3:22 is result of Adam and Eve disobeying, Genesis 2:17, Genesis 3:2-3. -
I will work with whatever definition you subscribe to. I assure you whatever you believe eternal life to be it has zero bearing on the questions raised. As such, quibbling about definition of terms is nothing but derailing the post.
With that out of the way, please respond to the question. -
Adam was not spiritually dead before the fall but nor was he spiritually alive?
What are you saying? -
explain how these verses support your beliefs right after sharing them on the subject
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Does the death and resurrection of Jesus restore man to pre-Adamic state,or does it go beyond that and add something else?
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The only thing close to "spiritual life" that I can find in the Bible is Chriat as the "Life", "Christ in is", "sealed by the Spirit", Christ as "a life giving spirit" and bring "born of the Spirit".
So using the definition of Spiritual life as "in Christ" and "sealed by the Spirit" I have to say these are not descriptive of pre-Fall Adam. -
Before the fall, Adam and Eve were good sinless people. They also did not have God's knowledge of good and evil. God being infinitely good. Adam and Eve were only finite beings.
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Read them carefully and tell me how they don't.
I figure the words should do all the speaking that is necessary.
If you disagree, then I understand. -
Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 10 am EST / 7 am PST -
Hi Agent47, here is what I believe scripture teaches, the death of Christ and His resurrection did NOT restore humankind in general or any individual to the pre-Adamic state of being un-separated from God. However, His sacrifice did provide the means by which individuals can be restored to the pre-Adamic state of being un=separated from God. Only when God transfers a person from the realm of darkness (separated from God) to the kingdom of His Beloved Son (together with Christ) is a person made alive (eternally per the New Covenant). As I said before, Adam did not have the promise of God for eternal life, that is an added feature of the New Covenant. You can find dozens of references to life eternal or eternal life in the New Testament, including John 3:16.
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