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Another "Free Will" Passage to Consider

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by skypair, Jun 10, 2007.

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  1. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Psa 33:14-15, 18-19, 21

    14 From the place of his habitation [eternity] he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth. 15 He fashioneth their hearts alike; he considereth all their works ["conditional" salvation].
    ...
    18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope [believe] in his mercy; 19 To deliver their soul [the very thing we lost in sin, Ezek 18:4] from death.
    ...
    21 For our heart [spirits] shall rejoice [emotion] in him, because we have trusted in his holy name."

    I hope you appreciate my comments which I feel in no way changes the meaning (Read the complete passage in your Bible to be sure.).

    skypair
     
    #1 skypair, Jun 10, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 10, 2007
  2. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Conditional salvation? And you think you have not changed the Word?
    God saves only good people...is this what your clamining?

    If one would not pull verses out of context, one would clearly see the meaning of this passage. Lets look at the full passage.

    So as you see...in context this is a passage where once again God is in control of all things. Why not trust in Him today...and give up on your logic.
     
    #2 Jarthur001, Jun 10, 2007
  3. donnA

    donnA Active Member

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    one can n ot pull out seperate texts and build a teaching, you must take all texts together andlet scripture interpet scripture, and then what do you do with the problem verses you can use for your doctrine?
     
    #3 donnA, Jun 10, 2007
  4. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    context is not a word found in the dictionary as far as skypair is concerned.

    this guy is hopeless as far as context goes.

    i'm just happy for him that God never chooses anyone based on whether he quotes scripture in context or not.
     
    #4 pinoybaptist, Jun 11, 2007
  5. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Actually, no, Jarthur -- but only BELIEVERS. Notice later in the passage David says "those that fear Him and believe in His mercy."

    the people whom he has chosen as his heritage! Yes -- BELIEVERS ... or Israel ("the nation") in this case. But in the later context that I cite, it also applies to believers --- not just some "elect" individuals.


    Oh, I trust Him already. I'm just wondering how you could if you are only "elect."

    skypair
     
    #5 skypair, Jun 11, 2007
  6. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    I see. It is clear from this post no one has told you that all elect to salvation do in fact become believers. Some this "just some of the elect"...is in fact believers as viewed in the NT.

    also this may help...

    one could change a few words without changing the context...
    just change "the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!"
    the people whom he has elected as his heritage...ARE...or will become believers. so yes...this is the elect

    so this statement you made above..
    does not make a bit of sense. The elect are the ones that trust in Him. They are "his heritage" as seen in this passage.

    for you to say..."only the elect"...shows your lack of understanding here. He also .... "fashions the hearts of them all"...as you well know from this passage. Do you understand what fashion the heart means? This is not just the elect...but "all the inhabitants of the earth"...as seen in this passage

    I hope this helps.
     
    #6 Jarthur001, Jun 13, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2007
  7. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    That's an admirable "helping" attitude, Ja. A little "edgy" but not bad. :praying: Yes, I realize that "elect" become believers. Here's how I heard it taught on Christian radio once --- that this pastor who was preaching said he was bringing the "elect" to God.

    In another place, I've seen this view of it -- that missionaries go as much to harden the hearts of the "non-elect" (to make their condemnation that much more clear) as they do to the "elect" to "effectually call" them on God's behalf.

    Now in all this, I find it way too weird that God the Holy Spirit indwells the "elect" before they believe --- regeneration before faith. It's not so weird from the POV of what the Reformers and the Catholics before them were trying to do, save their infants through baptism, but it is weird from God's POV that He isn't going to come into a filthy "house." But there you have it -- God living in "total depravity."

    Instead, here would be my theology on that ---- that it isn't until we believe (have "unproven" faith) and repent toward God that we are "justified" unto salvation. This means that our conscience which controls our life (formerly on behalf of self) is turned over to God.

    NOW God the Holy Spirit comes into a "pure" environment. In fact, if you have been saved, you will realize His arrival "with power!" Full of wisdom, emotion, and godly will for some period of days --- almost as powerful individually as you can imagine Pentecost was had you been there!!

    You know what that does? It gives you faith from God Himself. He has just given you the "substance" and "evidence" that turns gospel belief into "know so" faith of personal salvation (Heb 11:1!

    You couldn't have got this faith without the Holy Spirit. You could only comprehend and believe the simple gospel before that moment. Anything else --- understanding heaven, etc. --- was "hidden wisdom," 1Cor 2:6. But now you have a host of new "hopes"/beliefs of future things that, on account of faith, you can know will be your destiny.

    Like 1Cor 13:1 says, "Faith, hope, charity,..." You have faith in things you have "seen," spiritually they are substantive and evidencial -- your salvation, the indwelling of the Spirit, etc. You have hope in the things you haven't seen -- the "blessed hope" of His return, the hope of heaven, etc. And you have love one for another -- not to tear down godly men/women but to edify and build up.

    skypair
     
    #7 skypair, Jun 13, 2007
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  8. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Jarthur,

    And yes, I see "He fashions the hearts of all ALIKE." He didn't fashion the elect any different than the non-elect. Is there some reason you left out "ALIKE?"

    You see, the "heart" is your spirit (mind, emotions, and will). He didn't give you the Holy Spirit and leave that out of others when He fashioned the "non-elect." There is NONE that have an advantage before the gospel of Christ. ALL must believe with the same "heart" God gave to each and all.

    skypair
     
    #8 skypair, Jun 13, 2007
  9. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    So we have to make ourselves pure because God would never dwell in a depravity?

    So what exactly is the point of salvation if we can make ourselves pure?

    Can't you see that you are adding works to grace?
    You are adding to the scripture.

    What you don't seem to understand is that it is God that prepares out hearts unto salvation, not us.
     
    #9 Dale-c, Jun 13, 2007
  10. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    In a manner of speaking. See, we have to be "justified" - GIVEN the "righteousness of God" - before He will indwell us. How do we attain to that? Believe, but not "in vain." Believe, therefore, and repent toward God and receive the Gifts He has promised to NT BELIEVERS -- indwelling, faith, spiritual gifts, eternal life, etc. JUSTIFICATION is required before "election"/SANCTIFICATION. What I have maintained all along is that Calvinism attempts to sanctify the unjustified in a lot of cases.

    Paul spoke of this -- John, too. God gives us a "pure conscience" when we repent and receive His gift of salvation. It is "pure" in that we are restored to our relationship by the blood of Christ. Would you not consider that the first cause of "election?"

    As you view it, yes. As I view it, there are no "works" yet --- "belief" is not a "work," Rom 4:5. If you want to call "receiving a gift" as works, you are equating salvation with "the wages of SIN" when, in fact, we know that salvation is the "GIFT of God" not ever "earned." You just have been taught a perverse view of our part in salvation which doesn't even account for justification first.

    OK, how is that in your view? And what is the "heart?"

    skypair
     
    #10 skypair, Jun 13, 2007
  11. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Yes..and that is the point is it not?

    We are all born into a dead state a Godless being. Not wanting God..not having anything to do with Him. We are all in the same boat.

    God then elects and changes the heart of some....for without this changing of the heart salvation would never happen

    Gill on this says..


    So....Without this you are saying some or born smarter then others...and there by understand God and are saved. This is just not the case as seen in this passage.

    I even wrote on this very thing in my weekly column this very week.

    The full column is found on at this link..
    http://www.lincolnstandard.com/main.asp?SectionID=26&SubSectionID=301&ArticleID=1710&TM=36940.05
     
    #11 Jarthur001, Jun 13, 2007
  12. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    #12 skypair, Jun 14, 2007
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  13. JustChristian

    JustChristian New Member

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    I think a better interpretation is faithful people, those that have accepted His Son as their Lord and Savior and follow Him. Indeed, why not trust in Him today?

    Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
    Mar 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
    Mar 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
    Mar 8:37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
    Mar 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
     
    #13 JustChristian, Jun 14, 2007
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