Irresistible grace however nicely framed still charges God with damning men
Those who don't believe and perish as a result have never received revelation 'as truth' else they'd receive it unto their salvation.
Calvin: God is the Author of Sin
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Agent47, Jan 10, 2017.
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Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I'd like to take a moment to discuss 'Free Will.' Does it exist? If you offer me the choice between tea and coffee, do I have free will to choose either, or is my will in bondage to the fact that I prefer the taste of coffee? If the light of the Gospel comes to men, do they have free will to accept or reject it? Not according to the Lord Jesus Christ. "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil" (John 3:19). The will of man is in bondage to the desire to do whatever he jolly well likes without God interfering. 'The natural man does not receive the things of God, for they are foolishness to him.......' (1 Corinthians 2:14). Why would he want to obey God when it's so much more fun (he thinks) to do one's own thing.
Now I'd like to look briefly at the question of the curse on the earth, which seems to worry you. Obviously it is God's righteous judgement that sinful men and women are not going to live on a perfect earth, but are you absolutely sure that it was not also for man's benefit? Genesis 3:17. 'Cursed is the ground for your sake.' Now several modern translations render this, '.........because of you' which is quite feasible, but perhaps the curse is actually for our good. There are certain virtues that we will not acquire in heaven; we must obtain them here. Who could show courage if there was nothing to fear? Or pity, if there was no misfortune? Or mercy, if no one was ever in trouble? Or kindness or generosity, if no one ever needed anything? We learn these virtues in this fallen world and take them with us to heaven.
You are very unwise to blame God for being God and ruling His universe. The arguments that you are putting forward are very similar to those I have read by atheists like Christopher Hitchens. No self-respecting Arminian would have anything to do with them. When (if) you get to heaven, you will find that God has done all things well. He is infinitely more intelligent than you are, so stop standing in judgement upon Him. You can beat your brains out (such as they are) for a month of Sundays and you will not discover the origin of evil, because God has not told us about it. 'The secret things belong to the LORD our God' (Deuteronomy 29:29), and that's one of them. -
Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Of course, having held that position yourself, you know that Calvinism teaches all men are already justly condemned (they take Paul literally here). Grace is extended to sinners...While were yet sinners...
This belief is not restricted to Calvinism, by the way.
However, it is curious that you view God as obligated to save out of these condemned men either all or none. -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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What's more, even the sinners were ordained to Sin including Adam. There is no reasonable excuse for escaping the charge.that God authored Sin by which men are damned. He then struts across history saving a lucky few of those He damned. -
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God does not Will to save men. He issues a useless call that saves nobody. God is not love as far as Calvinism is concerned.
Like I said, fancy words don't change Calvinism into anything else. Rearrange words as you wish, the inevitable conclusions remains -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Right so if 10 of your children swam in a direction they are not suppose to, Although I can call them all I decide to call 3 rather instead of all of them. Did I just let 7 die? That's not evil on my part is it? -
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It follows that He damns everyone, then blames them before saving some of these.
The sinner in hell is there because God predestined him to be there. Please interact with Calvin quotes I shared. -
This thread has specific scope; demonstrating that John Calvin charged God with authoring Sin. Quoting the entire bible is irrelevant and off topic. I don't need your verses, which are spam anyway. When I want to, I will invite them.
Back to the subject.
Who decreed the Adam's disobedience according to Calvin?
Let him, therefore, who would beware of such unbelief, always bear in mind, that there is no random power, or agency, or motion in the creatures, who are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed~Inst 16:3
https://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.iii.xvii.html
So either Adam did not disobey, or God willingly and knowingly decreed it. Which is it?:Biggrin
When I gave this quote to @JonC , he sidestepped it by claiming that Calvin was talking about 'events'. Now, look what Calvin says when he addresses the Fall of man
Nor ought it to seem absurd when I say, that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it.~Inst 23:7
https://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.v.xxiv.html
God foresaw and arranged it. In short, God CAUSED it.
Someone here attempted to create another bogus distinction between Adam's disobedience and the Fall
PS
I'm from a third world black African country, probably semi-literate and underevolved so I'm not supposed to read some things. Happy now? -
Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
http://www.conradmbewe.com/
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