Calvinist claim they are elected.

Does Satan not believe that?

johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]Faith in God is the RESULT of the WORKS OF GOD, not the works of man!

 

Hi Wes;

Amen Brother
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Hi John P'

Why yes He does. But then we have to remember that Satan has already been judged and cast out they're no second chances. The rich man in the parable about him and lazrus. He's in torment as well yet he believes now. He asked Abraham this;
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Belief and it's effectiveness can be to late. As it is for Satan and all his angles
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Wes.

There you go Wes, a Calvinist at last. :cool:

johnp.

 

Hello ILUVLIGHT.

This was Wes' statement.
[Jesus clearly states the criteria for salvation is FAITH! BELIEF that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God!]

Your answer is in addition to the statement Wes made. It adds to it. So it is still with Wes to agree with you or not.
Does Satan not believe that? Since it is the criteria, a standard on which a decision or judgment may be based, then you have changed the meaning of Wes' statement. Belief is not the only criteria.

Does Satan not believe that?
Your statement, "Why yes He does. But then we have to remember that Satan has already been judged and cast out they're no second chances."
That is a truth of course but then we are judged as well and have been found guilty.

Death is the cutoff point for man. But a man that blaspemes the Holy Spirit does so in knowledge, being fully persuaded of the truth, and as such passes the criteria that Wes has set as the standard.

Taking it away from the fallen angels, no sacrifice was given for them, I talk about men, was the sin of blaspemy not paid for by Christ? I see from Wes' answer that a man that blasphemes the Holy Spirit will be saved because he believes.
[Jesus clearly states the criteria for salvation is FAITH! BELIEF that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God!]

Of course Satan and his lot can believe as much as they like, they have not been forgiven so their belief is useless. And so it is with men. It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Rom 9:16.

johnp.

 

Wes.

Let's do some English. I must admit to being a bit slovenly in my handling of John 6:29 and was always expecting to get pasted by someone who actually knew what that colon meant in the verse. I like words and often look up the meaning of most I use, especially the posh ones. Your use of criteria was a big mistake wasn't it?
Anyway, as I said, I like words and find them very useful in communicating ideas. With punctuations though I am useless and so it has taken me for ages to get round to checking the meaning of it up.

JN 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
This verse is self explanatory. The people ask Jesus what it is that God requires of them.
The next verse however I will split into three.
JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this...
:
The colon imeans; a punctuation mark used before an explanation, example, definition, restatement, recapitulation, quotation, appositive, or list
...to believe in the one he has sent."
The explanation, example, definition, restatement, recapitulation, or list.

So the work of God is listed, to believe, to believe is an example of what God wants from you and it is a work. Believing is a work and it is the work that God requires from you.

Whatcha think?

johnp.

 

Hi John P;

I disagree we have been judged we will not be judged until Judgement day. If youy say we are judged by the Law then I have to tell you that I'm not under the law. I'm under Grace.

So now you try to place Gentiles as the ones listening to Peter. I disagree again. Gentiles make up the rest of the world not just one nation. In short Peter was speaking to Jews not Gentiles :D
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

WRONG!

If believing in God is a work, Then NO MAN CAN HAVE SALVATION, because salvation is NOT OF WORKS (human works implied) LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST!

I don't know of anyone who would dare boast about what he believes in front of others. There is no way to measure what one believes. You cannot compare one's beliefs against another's. How can you see a belief?

You can certainly see works, or at least the results of works, but I don't know how you can see what one believes, unless the one ACTS OUT his beliefs in his daily life, then you can see the fruits of the spirit, but not the belief.

My point is that ALL works are visible and or tangible, even love manifests itself visibly. It can be seen in the lover and in the loved.

If believing is a work, then believing in anything is a work. So Prove that believing is a work, explain what it takes to perform the work of believing.

 

Wes.

That's right. That is what God requires and it is a work. The colon has it.
Maybe you would like to meet with me on the subject and not on your opinion.
You say that the scripture is wrong.
You say the English is wrong.

Why should I? If you do not believe what the scriptures say what use would I be to you?
JN 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
You are not to ask questions and dismiss scripture but to submit to the scripture. The above verses say that God requires you to believe in His Son and that this believing is a work. Yes or no?

johnp.

 

ILUVLIGHT.

Why do babies die?

Do you remember writing the quote below?

What is he doing in that place if he has not been judged already? Can we get a writ of habeas corpus against God?

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

You err badly because you do not know the scriptures.

johnp.

 

Hi John P;

because God needs them more than we do.

Yes I do.

In physical life if we break the Law we are arrested and Charged with the crime. The police take and put you in a place that is not very pleasant and there you sit until your trial. Unless you have a lot of money for bail. Most don't ever get out until after the jailer let's them out. Why are they placed in jail? It's to insure they are tried for there crimes.
God doesn't allow bail and that place of torment and suffering seems unjust however very necessary. Truthfully Hell it self hasn't been created yet or opened for business. The men in jails are fed little more than slop and in many cases sleep on a steel slab called a bed with nothing but a blanket.
You have to sleep with one eye open just to survive what your room mate might do to you.
This place of torment after death is much worse than any Jail simply because if you wind up there it's because you are charged with an offense. Christians have Jesus Christ and there sins or charges cannot be seen because of the blood of Christ they have been washed as white as snow. No charges are ever placed against them so Christians go to a place called paradise where Christ and the thief who hung next to him on a cross went to after they died.
We will all be judged some day some for righteousness and the rest for sin. Those who believe in Christ as there Savior are saved from there sins.

This is after Salvation and not until then because we as Gentiles are adopted we are not born into the family of God if we were, there would be no need for adoption.

Obviously your just angry. Place all your trust in Christ my friend.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

Ok Johnp,
let's play your game

Which definition is a work.

 

But don't believe this. You believe that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, every person. Thus you believe that the people in hell are not there because of their sins, but because they rejected Jesus, or, at least, if you tried to be logically consistent, this is what you should believe.

Now, if the atonement is general the way you suggest, it is unjust that God punishes anybody for their sins, since Jesus paid for them. You can not avoid double jeopardy in your system. Where in the Bible does it say that God punishes one sin twice? Either Jesus satisfied God's wrath for all people or He did not. By your own admission when you declared that the atonement is potential and not actual a few months ago, you do not believe that Jesus death satistfies God's wrath at all, even though the Bible says otherwise.

Does the Jesus' atonement pay for our sins or not? Yes or no

Where oh where in the text is there ANY indication that this is after salvation? Talk about eisegesis!

If that is true, then all Jews are already saved since they are part of the family of God already. This is exactly where you end up by denying individual election and affirming only corporate election.

Are only some Jews elected or not? How can you separate the individuals from the group?

Logically, you should be a universalist.

This from the man that says that no NT MSS of John 6 contains the verb "helkuo"...

 

In Case you think it is #7

You see, in definition 1 through 6b, EACH instances says to have (possess) or to be. None of the definitions says to do!

 

Which definition is a work. </font>[/QUOTE]One does not do Biblical exegesis with Webster's Dictionary. If you want to play Johnp's game you will have to deal WITH THE SCRIPTURES, which you avoid doing like the plague. Either you believe the Bible or not. Clearly, you do not.

 

Wrong again GeneMBridges, Johnp is interested in definitions and punctuation, especially the colon, which seems to be the place where he gets much of his stuff.

 

ILUVLIGHT.

Why do babies die?

johnp.

 

Wes.

Nice one. Expect to see me using my colon more now that I know what it's for and where I can put it.

Could you explain the verse below please.

2PE 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

I thought you said this is not a thing that can be given or received.

The definition God uses. JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
You are in His face.

JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
That is a to do ain't it? To believe, Jesus said, is a to do. A work. I would not dream of trying to define a word in any other way than Jesus used it. I'll leave the redefining to you.

johnp.

 

Hi John P;

Why does anyone die John P. We all die sooner or later. I've seen a lot of people die it really bothers me when a baby dies. They have just started there lives. Adults bother me as well when they die but it's not the same. They've had a chance at life. Babies aren't mature enough to understand anything about decisions. I believe when they die they go to be with the Father. They have no concept of sin or it's consequinces and as a result are not held responsible. Where there is no law there is no transgression.
Why do you think babies die?
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

The wages of sin is death.

The wages of sin is death.

And where would that place without law be?

johnp.