Luther had no authority to correct any doctrine. Nor Calvin or Zwingli or any other innovator since them.
They just founded traditions of men named after themselves, Scripture itself condemns these things.
The Eucharist is Jesus Himself therefore not idolatry, it is The Lord.
To hold up, adore and parade anything less would be idolatry. Yes you are right.
In the Eucharist Jesus fulfils His promise to be with us always, not just in spirit but completely, because He is not just spirit but flesh and blood also.
Zwingli’s unbelief and denial cost generations of people the beautiful reality of Jesus in the Eucharist.
It is not my faith that made Jesus real in receiving the Eucharist, it was my faith that enabled me to see Jesus in the Eucharist, to see its reality. Whether I believe or not, the Eucharist is Jesus.
Anything less than Jesus Himself in the Eucharist seems to us playacting a watered down ape of the ancient and sacred reality and faith.
Only the Apostolic lineage can confect the Eucharist.
For us the Eucharist is the centre, height and summit of our worship at Mass each day. Jesus Himself is our daily bread from heaven. It is so serious that we make the Eucharist available as our daily bread.
We spend whole nights in Adoration before The Holy Eucharist.
Only those who believe recognise the Lord at the breaking of the bread.
Catholic Magical Mystery Tours
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Earth Wind and Fire, Jul 27, 2024.
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Not to pick on Chan, but his new found belief that preaching and teaching should be deemphasized in favor of adoration and ceremony is refuted by your example as to what can happen when a church does this. Churches that emphasize the sacramental and liturgical side and use the remaining time for a 15 minute therapeutic homily end up with a congregation that instead of being superior in spirituality, is usually ignorant of the things of God and bored with the ceremony. -
We don’t venerate and adore bread and wine, but we do venerate and adore the Body and Blood of Christ.
We believe Jesus flesh is real food and blood is real drink, and so did all of Christianity for the first 1500 years unanimously and it still is the majority belief of Christianity today.
Many deny the words of Jesus in Scripture, they do believe Jesus flesh is real food and blood is real drink and thus they disobey and do not eat His flesh and drink His blood.
If the majority belief today and first 1500 years of unanimous Christian belief and very words of Christ in scripture does not convince, then its hardness of heart.
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I find that whenever you come on here you quickly show a side of Roman Catholicism that does not match the conciliatory messages of sites like "First Things". But it's probably something that people need to see. -
What you may not appreciate is all Christianity for the first 1500 years held the beliefs I am sharing with you about the Eucharist.
No church held a symbolic understanding of the Eucharist.
Zwingli was the origin of the denial, Zwingli’s human founded tradition.
If all the churches east and west have unanimously held for the first 1500 years and till today that the Eucharist is the literal Body and Blood of Christ, it should at least give you pause.
A unanimous Christian belief from the beginning for one and a half thousand years weighed against an arrogant opinion of Zwingli, there is no comparison.
The Eucharist is Jesus, that is the Goodness and Love and Power of the Lord. This is how He made Himself completely available and accessible to all His sheep personally down the ages.
Zwingli is the parent that evily poisoned and alienated you against the Eucharist. -
"Under the species which we behold, of bread and wine, we honor invisible things, i.e. flesh and blood".
Then Aquinas goes on: "I answer that, It is evident to sense that all the accidents of the bread and wine remain after the consecration. And this is reasonably done by Divine providence. First of all, because it is not customary, but horrible, for men to eat human flesh, and to drink blood. And therefore Christ's flesh and blood are set before us to be partaken of under the species of those things which are commonly used by men, namely, bred and wine."
I think from the writing above of Augustine and Aquinas, both before Zwingli, and both arguably Catholic, that they did not believe that the body and blood of Christ was any more than spiritually present in the bread and wine. They believed in a spiritual reality, by the faith of the participant. That did not prevent them in their writings, as it did not prevent Luther from insisting that Jesus meant what he said when he said "This is my body".
And that's fine for Lutherans. I'm not so sure the Baptists aren't completely correct in their interpretation. Why doesn't anyone ever camp on "do this in remembrance of me". Not do this to worship me or carry this representation of me around as an object of worship in a small, ornamental box.
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“Having learn these things, and been fully assured that the seeming bread is not bread, though sensible to taste, but the Body of Christ; and that the seeming wine is not wine, though the taste will have it so, but the Blood of Christ; and that of this David sung of old, saying, And bread strengtheneth man’s heart, to make his face to shine with oil, ‘strengthen thou thine heart,’ by partaking thereof as spiritual, and “make the face of thy soul to shine.”” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, XXII:8 (c. A.D. 350).
Aquinas was explaining why the Eucharist remains like bread and wine in appearance and to the senses, but in substance is literally the Body and Blood of Christ. He called this Transubstantiation. He was giving a word to describe what was always believed.
Jesus our Lord, King Saviour and Saviour Brother is giving us His own Self, His own Life, so that we will be recognised by The Father.
The Father only recognises The Son and those that are in The Son.
“ He who eats my Flesh and drinks my Blood abides in Me and I in him”
“ So He who eats me, will live because of me “
“ I am the Resurrection and the Life “
We receive a direct infusion of Jesus and Life in the Eucharist. His Life.
Jesus didn’t just give us His wrist watch for us to be recognised by The Father, He gave us the full infusion of His own Life in His flesh and blood The Eucharist. The Father recognises us from a long way off because we abide in The Son and The Son in us because ate His Flesh and His Blood in a pure Faith, we believed, we believed the words of The Son.
“ This is my beloved Son, Listen to Him “
“ Unless you eat the flesh of the flesh of the son of man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. “
When Israelites did in remembrance at Passover, they were making that One Passover and One Sacrifice Present to all Jews of all time.
“ Why is this night different from all other nights?”
There is only One Passover, and all Israel past and present is gathered there.
There is only One Last Supper and all Catholics past and present are gathered there.
Jesus our paschal Lamb, is the sacrifice and the feast.
“After the type had been fulfilled by the passover celebration and He had eaten the flesh of the lamb with His Apostles, He takes bread which strengthens the heart of man, and goes on to the true Sacrament of the passover, so that just as Melchisedech, the priest of the Most High God, in prefiguring Him, made bread and wine an offering, He too makes Himself manifest in the reality of His own Body and Blood. “(Commentaries on Matthew 4:26:26) Jerome 390 ad.
"What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that THE BREAD IS THE BODY OF CHRIST AND THE CHALICE [WINE] THE BLOOD OF CHRIST." (Sermons 272) Augustine
"The Lord Jesus wanted those whose eyes were held lest they should recognize him, to recognize Him in the breaking of the bread [Luke 24:16,30-35]. The faithful know what I am saying. They know Christ in the breaking of the bread. For not all bread, but only that which receives the blessing of Christ, BECOMES CHRIST'S BODY." (Sermons 234:2) Augustine 390 ad -
I have often wondered about whether Roman Catholicism has attempted to retain the power and authority of the Jewish priesthood. Some of your quotes above do seem to support that.
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Denial of God’s Power is at the heart of this dissent. The miraculous loaves and fish made no impact on Zwingli’s dead heart. No, impossible, forget “ with God all things are possible “ get your black marker out.
Zwingli is dead Dave, let his unbelief and denials die as well.
You hold up bread and wine, which has no life, we hold up the Body and Blood of Christ within which resides the Divinity and Eternal Life.
“ He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and will raise him up on the last day. “
Many of you believe. You will recognise the Lord in the Eucharist. Your faith will unmask His disguise.
“You will see the Levites bringing the loaves and a cup of wine, and placing them on the table. So long as the prayers and invocations have not yet been made, it is mere bread and a mere cup. But when the great and wonderous prayers have been recited, then the bread becomes the body and the cup the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. When the great prayers and holy supplications are sent up, the Word descends on the bread and the cup, and it becomes His body.” Athanasius, Sermon to the Newly Baptized, PG 26, 1325 (ante A.D. 373).
The Passover is made present. The Jews only celebrated the One Passover, the One Passover was made present throughout time.
In the Eucharist, Jesus is made present throughout time. -
For those who are not satisfied with the clearest and plainest meaning of this I would suggest listening to Jordan Cooper, the Lutheran. Maybe you will find some satisfaction there. I am more and more convinced that when I listen to him and especially you, that the Baptist view is best. I am not familiar enough with Zwingli to comment on his views.
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When we eat Jesus flesh and drink His blood, we abide in Him and He in us, we become one flesh in Covenant. All scripture leads to this.
Only in eating Jesus flesh and drinking His blood do we have life.
I was sent to a Presbyterian site years ago, the lone Catholic trying to fellowship, but they brought in big wig PhD Lutheran and Presbyterian guys to flat out attack me viciously. But Jesus was with me and took over. The Lutherans and the Presbyterian big wigs became Catholic and they scrubbed the whole site of everything. Before the admin guy ip blocked me telling me that he hated all Catholics and would kill all Catholic priests if he could, he said that because of me, he would never again allow a Catholic on his site.
I never insulted anyone or was nasty, or anything. Don’t go on Presbyterian sites or Lutheran sites, they are extremely intolerant of other beliefs.
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Actually, there is more common ground than you think. But it is due to the fact that most Roman Catholic congregants do not try to understand or follow the things you bring up. They seem to me to be, like you, really nice folks. Frankly, from what is going on in many contemporary Evangelical churches nowadays, I don't blame them for staying where they are. I don't have much else to say on this so you can have the last word. -
Just so long as people don’t expect more than a zero calorie return from zero calorie belief.
Catholics believe in literal resurrection through the literal body and blood of Christ. Jesus flesh and blood gives life to our flesh and blood.
“ He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. “
We literally believe that Jesus gives life through His body and blood.
“Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” -
A real trail blazer. All of Christianity for the preceding 1500 years believed the opposite.
The reason you don’t believe in sacrificial mass and the real presence, you get through him. He was the start of that tradition.
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