Cured

Blammo, I identify with your testimony. When the HS showed me my sin and opened my understanding, it scared me to death.

And I think that most people, in their own minds, would not claim any credit for their salvation. However, listen carefully to personal testimonies. You'll hear a lot of I. I realized that I was a sinner. I made a decision for Christ. I prayed the sinner's prayer. I accepted Christ. I'm so glad I did. They're not even aware of it, and would insist that salvation is by God's grace through repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus. And not of works.

At the very least we ought to see if there's a consistency between our soteriology and our testimony. I'll mean we either revise the language we use or the soteriology we embrace.

 

Tom,

It is unfortunate that so many have self centered testimonies. I was guilty of the same thing for many years. The first line I dropped was "I prayed the sinners prayer" (Even though I did pray, that is not what saved me), then "I made a decision" had to go (I don't know how you "decide" to believe something. You either believe it or you don't), the last thing to go was "I asked Jesus into my heart". That, "I asked Jesus into my heart", was something I had heard others say, it sounded good at the time, but I never really did that.

The truth is, I learned I was a sinner on my way to hell, I learned that Christ died for my sins, I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, and I was saved. There are still many "I"s in my testimony, but, I know where those things came from. God taught me I was a sinner on my way to hell, God taught me that Christ died for my sins, I could not do anything but believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, so, God saved me. If that makes me a Calvinist, fine, but don't call me one. I do NOT believe EVERYTHING Calvin taught. I am just a sinner, saved by grace.

 

You are in good company:

Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. 24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. ​

 

I don't believe everything Calvin taught, either. Good for you.

And about all those "I"s: I have tried to devise a personal testimony that leaves them out, and makes God the actor and me the recipient. Man, is it hard to do. Almost impossible.

Here's my feeble effort: On a Sunday morning in the summer of 1947, the Holy Spirit opened my eyes and my understanding. He revealed to me my sin and the eternal consequences. Suddenly all those sermons on hell, which didn't register before, now applied to this 9-year-old boy. It scared the daylights out of me. Then the Holy Spirit nudged me out of my seat and down the aisle to my pastor. As he questioned me about my understanding of being lost, and pointed me to Christ, the Holy Spirit began to draw me to repentance and faith, and extended God's saving grace to me.

There was no sinner's prayer. As I recall, the pastor asked: Do you realize you are a sinner? Do you trust Christ as your Savior and Lord?

As a 9-year-old I had no concept of the work of the Holy Spirit in me at that point. I see it now in hindsight. All I know is that up to that moment I had never given one second's thought to my spiritual condition. I see now that God opened my eyes, stirred my heart, and gave me understanding. It was all His doing and none of mine.

 

J.d.

Now don't get cranky, J.D. :D

And you below said you repented. OK, did you make a profession of faith in Christ alone for salvation at that time? I know it sounds picky but maybe you thought you would turn over a "new leaf" -- "reform" as Reformers would say :laugh: -- "straighten up and fly right" as us pilots would say -- and you have tried and tried but it just isn't working, this "holy living" stuff.

1) sky: It [sinners prayer/walking the aisle] is NOT required.

J.D.: Not only is it not required, but inordinant sacraments and rituals are idolatrous abominations.[/quote] It's NOT a sacrament or ritual, J.D. I wasn't baptized until 9 years later but knew I was saved. Where do you get off calling it a sacrament? It's a sacrament to Catholics and Reform but not to Baptists.

The formulation I underlined it true. The one you propose ASSUMES that faith = belief. It DOESN'T. There's a "step" that makes belief into faith -- it's called obedience. The difference between belief unto salvation and belief NOT unto salvation is some "draw back," Heb 10:39. God drew them to Himself but they drew back.

No foolin' J.D.! The "Constantinian change" where the gov't became the 2nd "sword" of the church established Christian "sacralism." That's where you have state religion and where everyone in the state "belongs" to the church. The obvious ways to bring them in is through infant baptism or forced baptism of adults and continuation through communion as a "grace-giving," salvific sacrament. These people were never saved, most of them! They were assumed to belong to God in the church and were begun on their road to sanctification without ever being justified by faith in anything but the state!

Do you not wonder why Christ said of the Sardis church "You have a name that liveth but art dead?" There you have it! The name is Christianity but the faith is in the church and sacraments and "election."

skypair

 

It can be confusing what with Calvinists equating belief with faith. Here's my answer:

Do you remember the man whose son would throw himself into the fire whom the disciples could not cast out his demon? What did the man say? "I believe, help Thou my unbelief!"

Unbelief can keep you from entering the kingdom "up front" but THAT unbelief is caused by rejection of the Holy Spirit. But like the man with the son, you could have unbelief after being saved and the only loss would be like the children of Israel who couldn't enter into God's EARTHLY rest!

Same with us. If we believed and trusted God in "going out of Egypt" (justification), we may live in much unbelief and fail to "make our calling and election sure" but that doesn't mean that we lose our salvation. Many Christians live in unbelief -- probably most -- but that doesn't keep them out of heaven if they first trusted Christ, does it? They just do not live "vistorious lives" is all (well, that's no small consequence but it seems pretty simple to correct). :D

I'm sure you agree with me on this but haven't brought it to the fine point of it mattering WHAT you don't believe, right? If you disbelieve the gospel, that's THE unbelief you're talking about, right? But really that is rejecting the Spirit, is it not? And what CAN God do with someone who rejects the gospel? Try again, right?

skypair

 

That would depend on what you see as "enabling." Do you think God doesn't send His Spirit to every man? Could the Spirit enable every man if He was sent and they were free?

Do you believe that the word of God is the incorruptible seed? Do you believe that the Spirit uses the word to draw men? What is different about some men that they don't "hear" but others do? Is it the Spirit not calling or are the others not hearing?

What or how does God put something in a man that enables him and not another?

That' "circular reasoning," Lar.

skypair

 

Body as one

We are to be one body as Christ being our head working together, we are not to fight this battle with devil by ourselves.

I cannot take a chance on my own, but to continue to keep my faith, belief and my hope in Jesus and encourage other to do also.

Through Jesus we are to be a light to the world and we cannot be that light living in unbelief.

Hebrews 3:
Warning Against Unbelief
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "[Psalm 95:7-11 a]
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."[Psalm 95:7,8 ]

16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[ Or disbelieved ]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

I cannot take a chance to live my life in ubelief and still claim i am His. Because the truth still holds.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Our faith is a seed that is planted if it never takes root in our heart satan can steal it and trials and tribulations can choke it out.

 

I hope I can sort through this correctly...

OK, but what is that? How does the Bible say we should "respond in faith?"

Oops! Better tell that to Jesus, then. :laugh: He's expecting a pretty BIG wedding, Mt 22, 25. And Paul is too! 2Cor 11:2. And John on top of them! Rev 21:1 And then there's Eph 5:32 -- the "mystery" of Christ and His church! Only someone not into the "hidden wisdom of God" I should think would not understand this -- wontya say?

Really Larry -- thats LAME! It's called the NEW COVENANT for a reason, right? How do we enter into it?

Hope as compared to KNOW, 1John 5:13!

Good! Then what is required on our part? (Again it's the "response" question, isn't it?)

Well follow my on this then -- How many terms have Calvinists 1) added by scriptural interpretation or 2) changed the meaning of in the biblical vocabulary? In what would be common, ordinary understanding of words? That's the "vain imagination." What has been the result, Lar? Instead of knowing the answers to CRUCIAL questions, Calvinists can't seem to find the answers to them!

Questions like why does God choose to salvation the ones He chooses? The simple answer would be He chooses those who believe, you'd think. But no -- that clashes with "it is all of God," doesn't it?

skypair

 

I beg to differ. No, I take that back I just do differ.
Greek word for 'through' is the word 'en'
Greek word for 'by' is the word 'en' ----- SHocker!

Look it up, it is a fasinating study!

Just as faith and belief are the same, just as 'and' means 'in addition to', just as redeem and bought are the same, just as... (can go on and on) They are synonomys words used to convey the same meaning.

Again, you need to study more. I just proved they not only are the same but they can be interchanged because they DO mean the same thing! Pure BIBLE.

Because the people didn't save themselves. It is God that saves and yes it was something chosen from the beginning.

Yep, all non-cals hold this to.

Still being affirmed and has been for over 2000 years.

Salvation isn't a destination, but still have no problem there.

I noticed you had to add your presupposition to the text - "How will God ensure their arrival..." Common on JD, you have to smarter than that. The text says ...God chose them to salvation THROUGH... The word through means 'BY'. I have not added anything to the text but simply let it speak for itself. You are the one engaged in sophistry my friend. I do not have to adlib to help the scripture say what I need it say. It speaks for itself and I am affirming it.

Look, God chose them TO salvation THROUGH (or by)...these 2 means. That is all it says.
If you are chosen to something through some means then by its very nature you were chosen TO - because of -, period. What is the means, Gods spirit and your belief of the truth- as says the scripture. It does not say your belief only but that first God must ... and then you must ...

I agree, but you can keep trying if you want. I will stick to what scripture says above my theology.

Nope! it was a beautiful rendering of what pure sophistry is about.

Try to win an arguement through deceptive means and distortion of truths, specifically for this case - those who do not hold to Calvinism.
Even the true Arminian would say you don't have any clue as to what they beleive.

In all seriouness though; I know you said that you have taught and preached over many years the Non-Cal view. However, with your understanding (which I can only grasp by/through reading your postings of what you understand our view to be, I must say) in my church you would have never been allowed to teach much less preach the garbage you claim you use to beleive. In truth I'm glad you found something that gave you a little more understanding than the nonsense you claim everyone else non-cal beleives, because you understanding of it is serverely distorted and in most cased out right wrong.

Again, your understanding of the Non-cal position is so lacking that it is absolutely staggering. First I have never stated nor insinuated we get any credit for our salvation, niether does the doctrine the Holy Spirit has lead me to. Just because God says you must beleive, in no way gives credit to me, for if God had not come to me, I would have never been able to believe. It doesn't matter if God GAVE you the faith, YOU still MUST believe with the faith God gave you, so I guess you to can claim some credit for your salvation as well. For if you did not use that faith to believe WILLINGLY in your new nature you would still be lost and in your sins.
You, my friend must believe the truth even if God gives you the faith to do it.
You must believe, but it is God who saves!

 

Rom 10:10 -- "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." What do you expect? If you told people that God did everything TO you, there'd obviously be NOTHING they could do to be saved but, well maybe wait, right? See if it ever happened to them, eh? is that really what you want them to do?

Would you have our testimony to be, "Well, I guess I'm the 'fair haired boy.' Good luck to you!"

skypair

 

It doesn't make you a Calvinist, it makes you a child of God.

For with the heart a man believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

WHOSOEVER (the person who) CALLS on the name of the Lord SHALL BE saved.

I agree we in this day do not teach or study the Word of God as we should and therefore have given birth to this weak version of christianity and Godless centered life. God holds man resposible for the truth revealed to him but at the same time man can not of himself save himself even with the truth he would believe. God saves man and man must believe.
You will never be able to get the 'I' out of your testimony because of the fact - you must beleive. Regardless of God giving or not actually giving us faith to be used, it still must be used by you to be saved. Thus the 'I' will always be there (and only in relation to beleif), but what matters is the context of the 'I' and whether it is 'I' or 'i'.

'I' must decrease and He must increase!

God be praised that I am saved not of nor by myself but of and by the power of Almighty God. I believed His word and what He said He will do, if I would just beleive.

BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ and you SHALL BE saved.

 

Tom

Basically, you are trying to be "politically correct." There was nothing wrong with your testimony or what you DID when you believed on Christ. You're just trying to "backfill" what you experienced with Calvinist rhetoric is all.

skypair

 

I was simply referencing the verse pertaining to speach and our attitude in such.

Tom, I have had some debates with you but have never seen any show of discord that I can recall. DIfferences yes, discord - as in trying to put down another for the sake of showing you view as superior and thus bringing in division to hearts in Christ that should be one EVEN IN differences.

Trust me my skin is thick but trash talk is uncalled for. I was not angry but then again I said nothing of anger either.

Strongs - 1) slander, detraction, speech injurious, to another's good name

:wavey:

From beginning to end and you should know that!

The Non-Cal and the Cal alike both pray to know the will of God and make petitions known before Him as they come bodly before His throne of Grace in their time of need.

 

No yet again Rippon, I am spot on - as they say. I did not chastise him or berate him but simply stated a fact that it is sad to see a fellow brother to do such.

Wrong.

Wrong again. I am known and quite fond of quoting spurgeon especially when debating Calvinists. But then again I use John Calvin, Gill, Owens, Pink and other too.
You and others from your side would grit your teeth so hard under his preaching on the same subject matter that both sides discuss here . CHS actually expected some folks to be angry under his plain preaching . The " Beloved Spurgeon" would not be so beloved by a number of BB members if they would have actually been under his faithful preaching .[/QUOTE]And yet AGAIN your great lack of understanding concerning the Non-Cal is becoming quite common place anymore.

Quote from Spurgeons sermon [Defence of Calvinism]

As you can see he is speaking against libertarian free will and not free will or responsibility of the will.

God did not regret it for it was God who move Spurgeon to do so. Are you greater than God, that you can pass judgment upon one who diligently sought the Lord in all matters of life and holyness?
It is funny that God has preserved Spurgeons works if not his very name even among the Non-Cals and John K. is something of a by-word in relation to Spurgeon.

And yet Moody is a man that God used mightly.
I find that you always fault men for their understanding of scripture and never their teacher - The Holy Spirit who leads them into all truth.

Though you would never do such dastardly things as Spurgeon or Moody. Nor would you ever recommend a non-Cal for anything spiritual. I like what Spurgeon says - that speaks to the love of the brethren and unity of the Spirit that has apparently become lost to most modern day Calvinists.

 

Once again Allan , you have misspoken . I believe man's responsibity and God's foreordination of all things are both taught in the Bible . Spurgeon did not have a contrary view .

Now regarding Spurgeon -- I respect him more highly than you can possibly imagine . But those we greatly esteem we can sometimes differ with . Spurgeon said the same regaring Calvin -- CHS held Calvin's doctrines "in the main . " On the other hand CHS believed that the doctrines which Wesley taught were "detestable .." I do not hold Wesley in high regard . His doctrines were so disgraceful that I will not embrace such a man who went about to degrade the gospel of God .

You know next to nothing in a couple of respects Allan . You said that I would never recommnd the works of a non-Cal . That is absurd . You need to to some reading of old threads . I had even started a thread about such a thing . I respect I. Howard Marshall a modern . Alexander Maclaren was a contemporary of Spurgeon who I respect highly . That is despite the fact that he invited Gypsy Smith into his pulpit . G.S. was even further removed than Moody from the true gospel and solid biblical teaching . F.B. Myer is another Arminian who was a true man of God though wrong in some teachings .

You can hold a man in high esteem ,but don't do so blindly . I am allowed to differ with Spurgeon , Gill , Pink and other Calvinists in some respects . However that has no bearing on a nonsensical statement you made . Of course I would never fault the Holy Spirit . No man , no matter how godly and gifted has had it all together -- he has not arrived . If I take issue with some saint of the past or present does not equate with arguing with the Holy Spirit .

 

Then why do you argue against mans responsibility so? That is all the term free-will implies with regard to those on the BB.
You have stated countless time in various ways, to me specifically, that man has not free will to be responsible for. God determinded man to do and man does. Where and how is man responsible then?

And yet the Lord God used John Wesley and the view that Wesley had which was brought froth through prayer and study. He was a God fearing man. Though even I do not agree with all of Wesley, I do not pretend he was not a man who Loved the Lord dearly and that His Lord Jesus loved him even more. Spurgeon saw other believers as brothers in Christ and not just theological camps. One always overshadowed the other dispite his disagreements with them on doctrinal issues.

I agree I am no scholar and even less any type of theologian. I also agree that my knowledge is vastly limited and my understanding simple at best. I have no problem acknowledging that I am like the clay UNDER the dirt that is UNDER grass on which many greater men than I ever will be walk. But I am still the clay in the Potters hand.

That was my error in not finishing my thought. I was refering to preaching, so I appolgize there for my unfinished thought.

I agree, and pray you do so regarding men and esteem.

I agree herein as well.

 

God doesn’t send his Spirit to every man in the same way. The Holy Spirit enables all to whom He is sent to enable.

Yes, Yes, the Spirit’s work, not calling effectually.

Through his sovereign power. Why are you so concerned about the mechanics? The “how” or “what”? Is it not enough that the Bible says he does it and doesn’t explain more than that? Why are you trying to get me to go past Scripture?

It’s not circular at all.

The “obedience of faith” is to believe on Christ for salvation, and all that it entails. You continue to err in suggesting that faith and belief are different. I see you try to peddle that again. The Scripture makes no distinction.

Yes, but your description of it is not really accurate, though that is a hardly a dividing line in this point. In Calvinism, both parties make a decision. In fact, if you want to get right down to it, in our culture most times, the woman doesn’t ask and has no opportunity to say yes until the man asks. Plug that into your system, since you like that analogy.

The New Covenant is a covenant with Israel, not with the church (cf. Jer 31:31-40). It involves much more than salvation, such as restoration to the land in peace, etc. It is entered into when God gives a new heart.

The Bible uses both hope and knowledge. Hope, in Scripture, is not wishful thinking. It is settled assurance.

Yes, how many times do I have to answer this? Man must believe and repent.

It is quite common to use theological words that are not found in Scripture. We do it all the time with words like rapture, Trinity, etc.

None. We use words as they are used in Scripture.

We have the answers that God has revealed. Most Calvinists try to make up answers past that.

God chooses to salvation those whom he does for his own glory (Eph 1), to confound the wise (1 Cor 1). Beyond that, he doesn’t tell us. Why do you insist on having answers that God has not given us?

You say that “he chooses those who believe.” Yet as we have shown over and over again, there is no verse of Scripture that shows God’s choice to be based on belief. You have changed Scripture and added to Scripture to get that.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Butler
And I think that most people, in their own minds, would not claim any credit for their salvation. However, listen carefully to personal testimonies. You'll hear a lot of I. I realized that I was a sinner. I made a decision for Christ. I prayed the sinner's prayer. I accepted Christ. I'm so glad I did. They're not even aware of it, and would insist that salvation is by God's grace through repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus. And not of works.

At the very least we ought to see if there's a consistency between our soteriology and our testimony. I'll mean we either revise the language we use or the soteriology we embrace.


skypair said:

If you'll go back to my conversations with Blammo (starting about Post 221), you'll get the context.

I'm talking mainly here about the language we use to describe our salvation experience, not about the salvation process. I think we both would express our gratitude for God's grace in saving us, and give him glory for it.

In describing my own salvation, I clearly spoke of my response of repentance and faith. (See post 224)

God is preeminent in our salvation. I just want our language to reflect that.

You might word your testimony differently from mine. But both should reflect our soteriology.

 

Are you suggesting all person’s once they are saved that they should change the statement "I was saved because I believed in Christ" to "He saved me because He made me believe in Christ"