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Denying the Supernatural work of God in Salvation

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Iconoclast, Jul 1, 2019.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

    8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

    10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

    11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

    12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

    13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    Jesus was very clear...there are earthly things, there are spiritual things.

    In discussing the supernatural work of God in bringing dead sinners to life, it was clear in John 3 that it is the work of the Spirit...not the work of the natural man .

    Despite this, some claim the the natural man has everything he needs to believe all by himself.
    They do not use the words, I DENY THE SUPERNATURAL, but they claim man can believe all by himself.
    Both cannot be true.
    Have you noticed this in some of the posts? Would you care to address this issue, as it is vital to a correct gospel presentation.
     
    #1 Iconoclast, Jul 1, 2019
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  2. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    No one has claimed this.
     
    #2 Revmitchell, Jul 1, 2019
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  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, I have not noticed that in posts here. Most who argue against the Calvinistic position also maintain that it is by the power of the Spirit men are able to believe.

    In a recent thread this was evidenced by comments insisting that all are drawn.

    Arminianism (Reformation Arminianism) is very clear on this point as well.

    But perhaps this is not a straw-man thread. So let's open it up -

    Does anyone here believe that men are saved naturally, by their own volition absent the work of the Spirit?
     
    #3 JonC, Jul 1, 2019
  4. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    The op is intentional not truthful
     
    #4 Revmitchell, Jul 1, 2019
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  5. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    You can't have it both ways though.

    False accusations and, as usual, no substance.
     
    #5 Reformed1689, Jul 1, 2019
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I recently told a friend that some people argue with straw-men because they can't with real ones.
     
    #6 JonC, Jul 1, 2019
  7. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it is a straw man. People here definitely come across as believing salvation is a work of man. This gives them the opportunity to better explain their theological position.
     
    #7 Reformed1689, Jul 1, 2019
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  8. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Sure post #'s 1 and 5 its all they have.
     
    #8 Revmitchell, Jul 1, 2019
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I don't (I hold a Calvinistic view).

    But I also have not seen the argument that men are saved without it being the work of God.

    Reformation Arminianism, for example, affirms depravity and that none turn to God except it be the work of the Spirit.

    The difference is whether all who are drawn are saved, and if all are drawn.
     
    #9 JonC, Jul 1, 2019
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It would help if some were arguing that position.

    Years ago someone (I don't remember who) did maintain that he chose God without this being a work of the Spirit. But on previous threads I have not seen this argument.

    @Revmitchell has bern clear that he believes men believe as a work of the Spirit in their lives. @Van has also bern CV lear that he believes men are drawn by the gospel but not necessarily saved (still, the movement towards God is a work of God).

    So I don't get where the OP is coming from. If it is encouraging dialigue it seems to be an insulting way to do it.
     
    #10 JonC, Jul 1, 2019
  11. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I have news for them. There will be no explanation of positions set on their terms. Childish threads like this only work to shut down dialogue. The idea that it gives someone opportunity is delusional.
     
    #11 Revmitchell, Jul 1, 2019
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  12. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Because you offer so much substance.....
     
    #12 Reformed1689, Jul 1, 2019
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  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Thread is closed - no one here has denied the supernatural work of God in salvation. As such the thread serves no purpose but to generate heat.

    If anyone wants to begin an honest discussion about how this work of God is manifested then please feel free to start a new thread.
     
    #13 JonC, Jul 1, 2019
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