Election means that the Destiny of men is in The Hands of God.

What exactly do you mean by this "sovereign"?

 

Ephesians 2:1-3. Well, our way of life, our manner of living was that of following our lusts and Satan. We were quickened from that so the argument that being spiritually dead means an active life of following evil - not inability of all activity. It also says it was by nature which means there is a problem there beyond a lack of knowledge of the gospel or sufficient information for us to make an informed decision. And it is passive on our part, not a matter of self reformation or getting it together.

 

Here is where as moderate or (weak) of a Calvinist as I am I have to admit that God is indeed completely over who individually will get saved. I am not able to reconcile this and part of me doesn't like it but sufficient scripture is there to convince me of it's truth. When I was not a Calvinist it still bothered me that some people didn't get the same chance to hear the gospel as others or their lives often appeared to me to be so hard that I knew I wouldn't have believed had I been in their situation so it wasn't any more satisfactory to me as an explanation of what I saw. There are a lot of areas where we have to accept that God is sovereign no matter where we are on reformed theology.

 

What I mean is how are you defining sovereign in terms of salvation?

 

John Piper gave a sermon titled "Is God Less Glorious Because He Ordained That Evil Be?
It is a commentary that expresses the full Sovereignty of God without making the claim of Cheung that God caused Evil. It may help you reconcile your issues.

Is God Less Glorious Because He Ordained That Evil Be?

 

Yes dead men can respond to the Gospel light, they respond with hate to it. It tells you that here Jn 3:20

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. That word hateth is in the active voice

See the death we are in by nature to God, its manifested by positive hate. For instance, naturally, prior to regeneration, being made alive out of being dead, we are carnal, our mind is carnal, even if its very religious and moral, yet its positively enmity again God Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

And unfortunately save God has mercy upon us and regenerate us, we will remain in that lost state, dead state, even if we are very religious.

 

Sorry. In terms of salvation I believe that all of us, the elect and non-elect are completely equal in our guilt before God and in our tendency to sin. But some do get saved. How does this happen. Well you have a lot of things come together from having access to the gospel to being kept from a life that would warp you into evil and so on. All these things play a part but God is sovereign over all them. And by that I mean He is allowing things to happen according to His will and manipulating things as He sees fit. But the ultimate and final factor is that the operation of the Holy Spirit is decisive in whether someone truly comes to Christ or not. The Spirit draws and convicts and I tend to think it's not an overstatement to say that regeneration is that quickening talked about in the verses above. And what the Spirit does is allow you to think as a renewed man and truly have a will freed from depravity and enabled to come to Christ. God does not do that to everyone and if he doesn't they don't get saved.

 

I will take a look at that. Thanks

 

Thanks Dave just added it to my list... Just finished The Holy War also Grace Abounding To The Chief Of Sinners and now reading Pilgrims Progress... Those who don't believe in election can take a trip to the potters house... I don't believe God elected any to Hell... He didn't have to, he just left them where they were... We were saved by GODS MERCY, not merit, by God alone... He saved his own... And according to Revelation seven HE saved a multitude no man can number and I'll leave it at that... Brother Glen:)

 

God's choosing of a sinner to salvation does indeed come before His calling them through His word.
Ephesians 1 comes to mind:

" Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:" ( Ephesians 1:3-9 ).

His word tells me these things in the passage above:

3) Believers are blessed with all spiritual blessing in Christ.
4) God has chosen them in Christ before the foundation of the world.
5) God has predestinated them to their adoption of children...by Christ Jesus and to Himself.
6) Believers are made accepted in the beloved...they do not make themselves accepted of God.
7) Believers have ( not will have ) redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins...according to the riches of His grace.
8) God has abounded towards the believer in all wisdom and prudence.
9) He has made known to the believer the mystery of His will, and it's of His good pleasure to reveal it to them.

These are all said to and about those who have believed on Christ.


Romans 8, specifically Romans 8:29-30:

" And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

28) All that love God are the called.
29) Only those foreknown of God are predestinated conformed to the image of his Son.
30) Only those that were predestinated are called, justified by Christ's blood, and glorified with new bodies...their "houses", if you will.

Romans 9.

Please look at it again, sir.

 

You are not hearing.

 

Realize that you are the only one who is even attempting to make God's choice something different than God's election. Indeed, your distinction is quite silly, but only God will change your mind.

 

You are not listening... Brother Glen:)

Romans 8: 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

He knew you were Heaven bound before he called you!

 

I guess you really do not understand what you just cited. And I believe you think you do.