SNIP
I hope that the above is of some value.
If not, please quote the passage above and break it down as I have done to show how you disagree with me.:)[/QUOTE]
Once again, your post is of no value as I avoids addressing the issue. The election of Ephesians 1:4 is corporate and cannot be individual, 1 Peter 2:9-10.
Ephesians 2
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by agedman, Nov 24, 2019.
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I am merely pointing out in YOUR post the inconsistency in which you present.
That you disagree and avoid does not present that there is not inconsistency in that which you present.
The all knowing God you present doesn't know all because He in His limited estate must find out information ("now I know" is what you quoted) and then "formulate" some plan in which perhaps leaves room for modification if necessary as if God can "repent" of what He planned. (note does not the Scriptures state that God repented?)
Therefore, your presentation of an all knowing God is not a God that knows everything from the beginning to the end.
Why not have a presentation of a truly knowing God. He has no need to plan (as one may develop a scheme) but shares as He determines with humankind. To humankind it would seem as if God planned, but from God's perspective as all knowing, there was no developing a plan, rather the communication to humankind what was already determined. -
Ephesians 2: 1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
One of the more remarkable aspects of this text is the revealing of what the folks already know about themselves.
An honest person doesn't have to be told they are a sinner, they will acknowledge they are a sinner, that nothing of lasting value is ever within their nature to achieve.
Paul presents that people are dead. Dead as used in the Scripture means physical death. It is also metaphorically used as Spiritually dead for unbelievers are cast into the Lake of Fire which is called the "Second Death."
John states that the non-believer is "condemned already." That is they are as "dead men walking."
But another remarkable presentation of this passage, also readily agreed upon by even the unbeliever, is that the unbelievers "follow" what is popular, profitable, socially acceptable, customary that is called "the world." Not only follow it, but thrive and are driven by it.
Lastly, within that agreement that the person knows they are a sinner, that they agree in following the world, there is little to offer in defense concerning who is the authority in their life.
The passions, the desires, and the society in which one lives does not present one as being more than "BY NATURE children of wrath." That such a condition is not some decent into decay, but is the condition of all "the rest" of mankind - DEAD.
So, in what manner can one who, without the quickening of the Spirit in which God makes a change in that person, proclaim from their own estate of bondage to sin, sinfulness, and the devil that which is "credited as righteousness."
The answer of course: They cannot.
It is impossible.
So the next words the Apostle writes are extremely important!
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
It is not a matter of human attainment, no part of human offering, no human hope, brings or even can bring the "dead in our transgressions" alive to be credited in Christ.
Paul is clear. He brokers no other presentation. The direct and specific work of God in individual lives the (us - the you, and me, and all that believe) is that specific work of God. -
According to your understanding of God, Christ was not put to death by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God. Nonsense. -
Look at post #24 Van.
See if your view is based on Scripture or if it is merely that you claim your view is based on Scripture.
"You pretend scripture does not mean" what God states. "Your problem is with Scripture, not with me."
Your greatest consistency resides in being inconsistent. -
2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
MB -
You desire to be so anti something that you actually do not know that ALL schemes show that God is the first actor in salvation, not humans. He first loved, He first gave, He first reconciled...
The Lord Jesus said to those unbelievers around him, "Even you know how to give good gifts." BUT he did not say they know how to give perfect gifts. That is reserved for the God of all creation.
And I explained that the word "desire" is not as humans who crave. It cannot be used in that manner.
Rather, the word is used as God has placed His best offer and no other will be made.
But then I sat with the Scriptures, and God took me to where I am.
Do not assign that which you know nothing about and have no concept. -
as I did in my previous post and every other post I've ever made on this board about that passage since I first joined this forum:
The election of Ephesians 1:4-5 is individual, and always has been.
Ephesians 2 simply gives more detail as to how and why He elected the believer to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).
Now,
You're not sidestepping my request, are you?
I hope not, Van, because I'm very curious as to how you see Ephesians 2:1-10 when you read it for yourself.
Ephesians 2:1-10 ( and the rest of the chapter ) dovetails intimately with Ephesians 1.
It tells the believer how and why God did what He did in Ephesians 1, and gives us those details in the text.
Therefore, rather than giving the readers here a short summary of what the passage does not mean, why don't you instead tell them what it does mean, verse by verse, at least to you?
Unless of course you are unable, and then I completely understand, sir.:(
Instead of vehemently disagreeing with me,
Show them why I'm wrong... instead of simply declaring it and then expecting them to believe you.:Thumbsup
Van,
I don't think you are understanding where I'm going with this...
But to clarify, what I'd like for you to do is to be as transparent as I am, on the pages of this forum, with your views of Scripture...
So that the reader can carefully compare how you see the words on the page, with how I do.
Then we can both let them decide who is correct in their teachings and beliefs.
This is now the third time I've posed this type of request to you, and it seems that you are doing everything you can to avoid it or anything like it.
Are you willing to do this or not?
Show the readers here who actually study their Bibles in-depth, how you see the Scriptures laid out, line by line, so that they can compare how you see it, and how I see it.;)
Thanks in advance for your reply. -
The early church in the first century believed Paul, Peter, John and ultimately, the Lord Jesus.
Please see:
John 6:29,
John 6:37-44,
John 6:64-65,
John 8:43-47,
John 10:26-29,
John 17:2-3
Romans 1:6,
Romans 8:28-39,
Romans 9
Romans 10:16-21
Romans 11:1-8
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14,
1 Peter 1:1-5,
2 Peter 2:12-15,
2 Peter 3:8-9,
2 John 1:1-3,
2 John 1:13,
Jude 1:4-19,
Revelation 17:14.
That mankind lives, breathes and makes independent, non-robotic choices and wills to do things is not the issue.
The issue ( and question ) is, how can men who hate God ( Romans 1:30 ) suddenly change their minds and begin to seek Him with all their heart?
Peter is speaking to and about God's children, not about all men.
He is not willing that any of them perish, but that they all come to repentance.:)
Please see John 3:16, John 3:36, John 5:24, John 6:39, John 10:28-29, Romans 8:31-39. -
Mat_11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
I wonder where that leaves you wise man
MB -
It's yet another of the many gifts granted by God.
Solomon asked the Lord for wisdom ...
He gave it to him ( 1 Kings 3:5-13 ).
Just as He does for all of His children ( James 1:5 ).
Please read the Proverbs and the book of Ecclesiastes.:Cool -
But do not dismiss something just because you disagree from where it came. I have contended for the faith in many areas, I had to be very widely read from many folks in whom I would not esteem. Yet, the information allowed me to address issues without or with little personal bias.
The Scriptures state, "Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow."
So, no human can give or acquire of their own will that which is perfect.
He has given me insight. I share with you in hope that you will gain at least an bit of insight, if not that, at least a bit of understanding so your responses reflect that which is right.
These things are not a matter of calvinistic thinking, it is a matter of what the Scriptures teach.
I have attempted to lead you away from a certain teaching that is heretical. I am thankful that you clearly state that God must be involved in the work of the Holy Spirit.
But, I also see a need to continue to grow in understanding. I am not presenting that you accept.
However, the Scriptures do present themes such as election, predestination, atonement, depravity, perseverance.
These are Bible words. They are not exclusive to a scheme that you desire to refute.
What do you know about these specific words?
How are they applied? For example in Ephesians 2.
Did you understand post number 24?
Can you refute what is stated in that post using other Scriptures? -
Once again, your post is of no value as I avoids addressing the issue. The election of Ephesians 1:4 is corporate and cannot be individual, 1 Peter 2:9-10. -
We could not live as "not a people" if we had been individually chosen to be His people! -
I wonder will your great genius fail you.?
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
This shows you the truth and you can't see it because you let your Calvinism blind you.
MB -
He refers to the FACTS of post #24 as "no content, no effort..."
Yet, he cannot take that post and defend his view using Ephesians 2. He must grab at something else and make some attempt.
So just to show how wrong in this matter he drifts, her is the statement as it reads as a passage. In it the reader may discern what is the truth.
1Peter 2:
The "you" does not occur in the original language, but is the identification of one eating, such as "I eat, I taste." The significance is that the "you" does not pertain to a grouping - that would be "you all," but to the specific individuals of a grouping - all the individuals of "I" .
Did you see the transition from individuals to the collective? The "you come to Him" as not a grouping but becomes a grouping by the statement "you yourselves" and then the plural "stones" in verse 5.
Peter continues in validating this "stone" by stating OT passages.
I bolded this section because it shows in one sentence the refutation of @Van's thinking. Folks were (as Jude also states) DESTINED to disobey. NOT predestined, but they are "condemned ALREADY" destined to the lake of fire (as John states).
6For it stands in Scripture:
“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone,
a cornerstone chosen and precious,
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
7So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,
“The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”
8and
“A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense.”
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
Next is that which the poster would use to imappropriately boast.
Now, certainly, the original validates that Peter is speaking of the nation formed by believers. This is indicated by the English words "race, nation, a people." HOWEVER, such does not suddenly become "corporate election, and that is the basic disagreement.
9But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
The statement is NOT about grouping, nor how the grouping is formed, it is about the purpose of the grouping. That is what is to be taken from that passage. To attempt to present some formation of the grouping from that passage is error.
Again, the "you" are all non-existent in the original. Rather the wording is such that it is making certain of individual accountability is both before the "gentiles" the heathens, and before God "on the day of visitation.
Does anyone not know we all stand, individually, to give an account? This passage indicates another place to give validity to individual election and individual accountability.
I call on Van to set aside his error.
As always, if those, far closer to scholarship in original languages then my forgetful work, do find that I have presented something that is not consistent with the original sources, please do not hesitate to correct me. I do not desire to post what is not faithful to the Scriptures and do remain submissive to better scholarship in the original than I can now offer. -
MB -
[QUOTE="agedman, post: 2549193, member: 11131" He makes the OP of the thread (Ephesians 2) something entirely different by distracting, and then claims I "am avoiding addressing the issue." SNIPPed
He refers
Yet, he cannot
He must grab
he drifts,
the poster would use to inappropriately boast.
I call on Van to set aside his error.
.[/QUOTE]
Yet another post of utter nonsense. Did I say we are not ever individually elected? Nope, so deflection ad nauseum.
Ephesians 1:4 cannot refer to our individual election because we "lived not as a people." If we had been chosen individual before the foundation of the world, then we would have always been a chosen people.
Once again, your post is of no value as I avoids addressing the issue. The election of Ephesians 1:4 is corporate and cannot be individual, 1 Peter 2:9-10. -
Typically of Van, he again deflects.
Does anyone else notice he brings up Ephesians 1, but the thread is about Ephesians 2?
Did anyone notice he did not post the passage and point to specific areas presenting the truth?
He posts avoidances and actually expects readers to be impressed.
Btw, do not let him bring confusion about “lived not as a people.”
That has no importance to the topic, brings nothing of value to the table.
I’m a believer, have I always lived like a believer?
He is faithful even in my unfaithfulness.
He loved, before we loved Him.
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