Free choice to choose...

psalms.

He doesn't 'let them exist' He says, Isaiah 29:16 You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay! Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, "He did not make me"? Can the pot say of the potter, "He knows nothing"?

Job 1:21 ...The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised.

I came from a family with no Christians in it as far back as memory goes but why do people think God loves everyone if He forms people that are Hell-bound is the question. That mankind is a tool of God is without question to His Children. That He can rise Children from stones if He wanted to is also without question.

Is that a judgment of me or you?

john.

 

Actually it is a question for both. Look at it this way: Assuming you are not an open theist, you believe that God brings "Joe" into this world, knowing that Joe will not believe and will die in his sins and will spend eternity in hell. Yet God doesn't stop it. How is that loving?

God could have changed the circumstances in Joe's life to bring him to faith. But he doesn't.

In fact, since God knew in eternity past that Joe would not accept, Joe really has no chance to get saved. The only chance he has is if God's knowledge was wrong. Do we really need to discuss the implications of that?

(I have just laid out for you one reason, among others, that people become open theists. They recognize the fallacy of the argument you made, and rather than change their beliefs about God's sovereignty, they change their beliefs about God's knowledge. Both are an equal attack on the person of God.)

The Calvinist faces the same scenario but rests in the providence and sovereignty of a loving and gracious God who does all things right.

For the Calvinist, Joe doesn't go to hell because God sat idly by able to change it but unwilling. Joe goes to hell becuase Joe is a rebellious sinner against God. He did not want to be saved.

Let me take a stab at these questions. I konw they were asked to John.

There is nothing special in the elecct that God chose them (cf. 1 Cor 1:26-29). That's exactly the point. If there were something special in man (i.e., foreseen faith; better family; etc), then God would be a respecter of persons.

This is a more difficult question, but it is the same question both sides must answer. The reason I am inclined to, and the reason that Jonathan Edwards gave, is that God desired to show his glory against the backdrop of the ugliness of sin. god is not unfair to send sinners to hell. It is what they deserve.

The ministry of the Spirit and the work of the Word in my life. The "strong delusion" does not lead one to believe the Bible. It does not lead one to believe in Christ. So I think you are using that passage out of context. The Bible further indicates that it is impossible to deceive the elect.

 

That's right. You seem to understand the terms correctly unlike most Calvinists who believe that one may be "regenerated" as early as birth and baptism -- others who don't really know when.

Actually, I wouldn't go out looking for a book on what I already understand both from my perspective and Calvin's. The fact that you are a "5 pointer" and don't beleive regeneration comes first is an anomally.

Have you, on the other hand, learned the difference between "soul" and "spirit?" And how the concepts apply sotierologically?

Surely there was before God chose them, right? But that is such a tedious detail. Let's just say that "election" IS the believer's ministry post-salvation which God knew about before He predestined the believer. That makes much more sense now doesn't it?

skypair

 

Again, I agree its impossible to deceive the elect. What concerns me is there are the ways of men that seemeth right, but the end thereof is death. Also, many will say in that day they are Christians, but the Lord will say depart. Another one, the blind leading the blind, or they will say, He is in the desert or lo He is here or He is there. Pastor Larry, I believe there will be many who you call free willers and many who I call Cal that will probably be in that number.

Mat 7:21¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

My Father who passed 49 years ago preached "make it as sure as you can, for we only pass this way but once", and now for 34 plus years, I have preached the same.

 

Bob.

1. If God loves all men why does He create those who He knows are going to Hell? (Love is kind. 1 Cor 13:4. Love always protects. 1 Cor 13:7.)

Right question wrong person?

I told you yesterday that misrepresenting others is a sin openly practiced. It is expected from those who blieve in free will, no answers only slurs to get you through.

REV 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

Or is that bad theology, after all it says salvation belongs to our God not to our decision.

Answer Bob:

1. Because He loved me. Because He chose to. Because.
2. I am from the same lump all men came from.
3. You hope? It has nothing to do with you.

Question Bob.

1. If God loves all men why does He create those who He knows are going to Hell? (Love is kind. 1 Cor 13:4. Love always protects. 1 Cor 13:7.)

He 'let' no one do anything but PR 16:4 The LORD works out everything for his own ends-- even the wicked for a day of disaster.
...They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for. 1 Peter 2:8.

Answer Bob.

Good question. Paul gives us a clue with his conclusion - RO 9:22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

What if He did that for me, what am I supposed to say, sorry? :)

Question Bob.

1. If God loves all men why does He create those who He knows are going to Hell? (Love is kind. 1 Cor 13:4. Love always protects. 1 Cor 13:7.)

Being sure is part of the deal isn't it? HEB 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

Can one be deluded into believing Christ died for one's sins? I thought you said He died for everyone's sins. If I'm wrong in doctrine I still trust in Jesus, that's not wrong is it, but if you are wrong what? You still believe He keeps a record of wrongs to those He loves, is that trusting after He says He doesn't keep a record of wrongs to those loved by Him?

2 Cor 10:4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. (Or we do quite well being modest.)

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

Why will they fall into the ditch, is it because God set a stumbling stone in front of their feet, a thing forbidden us? ..."A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall."... 1 Peter 2:8.

Let the dead bury their own dead. Heb 4:2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest

Faith is trust, it is being confident of this, that he who began a good work in me will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. Php 1:6.

The Servant King is doing for me. :) It is a tight-rope I am alaways falling off so I understand the difficulty in being less Jacob like. I do no works I have faith. I do not care to judge myself, I'm getting on, what's to say a change in me is due to maturity from age rather than from faith? I trust Christ died for me I have nothing else nor do I want anything else.

You have a way of edifying the Church that is new to me. :) It's not what I say nor any gift of future knowledge nor is it about how many demons got it today, John 17:20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."

That's the strange thing about delusions isn't it, the Israelites showed that? As I asked you, is it a delusion to believe Jesus Christ died for my sins?

I know, PR 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

My response in answers. :)

john.

 

Apparently you don't, given the number of mistakes you make here.

This is ture.

Biblically there is no real difference. Soteriologically there is no difference at all.

No, God chose them in eternity past. There was no "before" in eternity past. God's knowledge is eternal. It never comes into being.

No, it makes no sense at all. that is not how Scripture uses hte word.

 

How so, given that God’s knowledge is eternal? There is no sequence to knowledge. Furthermore, the fact that God know about it before Joe is born means Joe can’t change his mind. He has no chance to.

Yes, God created man able to choose, and man chooses to reject God until God effectually moves on him to accept. There was no chance that Adam was not going to sin.

then you need to study more.

That is what Calvinism teaches. Read the WCF. It makes clear what I have just said.

Because he did for his own glory.

Again, because he did for his own glory.

 

I don't think you are answering the question, why did God choose you in particular?

Tell me, Did Adam have a choice to eat of the tree or not?

The problem Pastor Larry is; you equate God's knowledge with God causing man to choose or not, when in fact God gave man the choice to choose good or evil, and knows what man will do, because He sees the end from the beginning. If I were able to look now at all things even the end of time, then I too could tell you now who would believe a hundred years from now, but that would not mean I made him choose to believe or not.

I do believe in "influence and decision" where you believe in cause and effect. God strives with all men, some choose to follow and others do not. The reason He strives with all mean is because He hath no respect of persons. You believe He hath respect for a "select few".

Question;
Is this a family thing, or is it individual. Will all your children, children's children etc be a part of the "elect", or will some of your natural family be lost?

 

Yes, I think Adam had a choice and there was no chance that he would not sin.

So you admit that Joe has no chance, and yet God created him anyway. How is that different than what a Calvinist believes?

See above.

So you don’t misrepresent what we believe, so that you know what you disagree with … and ultimately because it’s what the Bible teaches. To study the Bible is to study Calvinism.

No it’s not.

Yes it does. God chose me in particular because he decided it would bring glory to him.

I am answering the question. There is nothing about me that caused God to choose me. He chose me because of his desire to magnify the glory of his grace.

Yes, I am answering it. It was because God magnifies his glory.

See. (this would be easier if you would ask each question once.)

That’s not really the point. The charge by your side is that Calvinists have a God who creates people that have no chance to accept him. What I have demonstrated is that your side has the same problem. It matters not, for this point, whether God’s foreknowledge is causative or not. It renders the future unchangeable.

So what about Tyre and Sidon? God didn’t strive with them. In fact, he plainly said that he could have brought them to repentance but did not do so. He did not do everything he could have done to bring them to faith and repentance (Matt 11:21).

The Bible teaches it is individual.

 

Calvinists cannot give an answer to why God chose any person in particular. God is the one who does the choosing, and God didn't say in the Bible why He foreknew (knew personally) some and not others. So if you want an answer, you have to ask God.

Free willers, on the other hand, claim they're the ones who make the decision. So why is it free-willers can never answer the same question? In the case of free-willers, it's a legitimate question because free-willers say man makes the difference -- therefore man should be able to answer the question. Why did you, in particular, choose "right" when others chose "wrong"? How did it turn out that you were <wise, smart, humble, whatever> enough that you would make the "right" decision?

 

So I'm NOT mistaken that you are an anomally regarding regeneration but I don't know anything else???

Biblically there is no real difference ["soul" and "spirit" in scripture]. Soteriologically there is no difference at all.[/quote] Oh? Heb 10:31 says that soul and spirit CAN be "divided asunder" and you say no? Let me PLEASE. "in the bond of peace," understand how you divide them but not sotierologically.

That is very interesting. So now you deny "before the foundation of the world" to say that God actually "elected" in eternity past?? There never was a time in eternity past when God hadn't decided to create TIME?? In what dimension, then, do you see God foreknowing anything??

Larry, trust me on this ---- "election" is ministry, God's purpose for you, God's blessings upon your life IAW your obedience, etc. If God's election of you was all you thought you had, you would be hesitant to even embark upon a ministry not knowing God's REAL plan for you!

skypair

 

Ugh! So you DON'T know if you are "elect" or not. Well, if you don't KNOW, you ain't! How can you even debate this this issue, npeterely???!! Just say you don't know and LISTEN!

Npet -- it's SCRIPTURAL!! That's how! Is the Bible right and human reasoning wrong?? Then look at it this way --- the Bible is right and Calvin is wrong, won't you??

skypair

 

Thanks for the answers Pastor Larry

Well Pastor, I will not go any farther with this family thing. God Bless,

 

I never said you didn't know anything else.

No. Heb 4:12 says that. It is a Hebraism about the fact that the word of God penetrates the very core of man's being.

I don't divide them. It has nothing to do with soteriology. Man is made of a material part and an immaterial part. The word for "soul" or "spirit" is used both for material and immaterial.

Uh??? When you do think before the foundation of the world was? It was in eternity past. To say God elected in eternity past is to say he elected before hte foundation of the world.

No. there is not time in eternity past.

Dimension? I don't see that as a biblical category. God's knowledge is eternal by necessity. If God is omniscient, then it has to be eternal. If he came by that knowledge in time, then there was a time when he was not omniscient.

Election, as we are discussing it here is about salvation, not ministry.

I am not even sure what this means.

 

Adam had a choice, and there was no chance he was not going to exercise that choice to eat of the tree. I am not sure how that is confusing.

I agree. God does not cause people not to believe.

I have been here a long time myself. I have virtually quit all CvA debates for the precise reason you indicate. They go nowhere and very few are willing to actually study the Scripture. You show them something in black and white (or back and blue as the case may be), and they don't care. I think JArthur is very good.

I don't see how this is confusing. He has a choice and because of his sin nature that choice is exercised to sin and reject God. How else do we deal with Scripture?

Apparently not. I think this is a clear answer, and I think it is the answer God gives.

Why? Let's put it this way: If God chose someone because they believed, then he would be respecting those who believed in him and disrespecting those who did not. The reason is because God chose to.

I don't think you understand. I don't believe God caused me to choose to sin. I don't really believe he caused me to choose to believe. I sinned because of my old nature. God gave me a new nature and that new nature chose to believe.

so was God disrespecting Tyre and Sidon because he did not do everything he could have done to bring them to repentance? Was he less loving to them than to me? Or the Jews in Nazareth? Tyre and Sidon didn't choose to have less of the work of God. And God sent them to hell without trying hard enough to save them. How do you escape the staggering implications of that?

 

As Bob would say, "You're WRONG, Larry. Much as we love you, Adam 1) had a real choice between God and Eve (of whom God had said, "For this reason shall a man leave his Father and cleave...) and 2) between sin and life!

In this --- God KNEW Joe wouldn't believe but God didn't CREATE Joe not to believe! Do you still not see what a perversion of God you have set up?? (No, of course you don't). :tear:

Oh! Now that is humble of you.

So far as God's plan, you're wrong. God, by foreknowing in eternity past, CAN change what is predestined. If you know your child is going to put his hand on a hotplate -- if you "foresee" it -- what do you do??? Let him do it? God foreknew that Larry would receive Christ and enter the ministry. Do you think that was it?? NO! He foresaw your erroneous theology and sent someone(s) to grab your "hand" away from error!! He even foreknows whether you will harden you heart or whether your heart will be "broken" so He can use it.

Larry, you would only need to see it in "free will" conext to understand that God DID strive with them (He said, "My spirit shall not ALWAYS strive..." but that doesn't mean that He doesn't strive with some men -- it just means there will be an END to His striving with each of us.). He COULD have brought them to repentance, but like Israel, He could not. And how do YOU presume that He did not "do everything" that He could have????

skypair

 

Calvinist

All who believe is His children. This is what the scripture say why they are hell bound.

John 3:18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

In the old testiment I agree with calvinist only through Jesus and His world are they given a life enough to choose to believe or not to believe. It is Jesus words that are Spirit and Life and we are the messenger of it.

All of us is clay made for destruction and i cannot complain to the potter why He made me this way. Me and you both are in the the same clay made for destruction

Who can save me from this body of death praise be to Jesus. Jesus is the only one who can save us from this dying flesh. Only those who remain in Jesus will go on to honor. Jesus is our only hope. Men our pretty aragant to say I was made for honor for without Jesus we are nothing but headed for destruction. Do not put your hope in yourself thinking you were made for honor, because you and me both were made for destruction. Only Jesus can save us, put your faith in Jesus.

Jesus says whosoever believes in me shall be saved, who am i to argue with God. It is God who choose to save them.

God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and me and you are messsengers of it.

Some have matured and realized the hope the world has through Jesus, but some remain in the old testiment and have not seen the hope for the world through Jesus.

2 Corinthians 3

1Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you? 2You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. 3You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

4Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
The Glory of the New Covenant
7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

12Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect[Or contemplate] the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

 

How am I wrong? I agree with you. (Now that I think about it, that would make me wrong a lot ... :D). Seriously, I think Adam had a real choice, though it wasn' between God and Eve, it was between sin and righteousness.

I don't think God created anyone not to believe. I don't know many who do.

It really isn't meant to be pious.

No he can't. Because then his knowledge would be wrong. You are going down the path of open theism. If God knows that X will happen, then it has to happen. If he changes his predestination of it, that also is knowledge from eternity past. I don't think you realize the problem you are creating here.

Interesting example. So let's pursue this: How would I pull his hand away? Would I sit and beg him hoping that he might exercise his free will? Or will I go and physically pull him away? the latter right? And why? Because I love him. I will not let someone I love, over whom I have control, hurt themselves. So plug that scenario into God and his love and tell me what you come up with.

You are correct. And I am so thankful that he did. You would not believe what a difference it has made in my life. It is what sustains me from day to day. I am glad that God used a number of people, circumstances, and his word to change my erroneous theology.

Actually that is a misuse of that passage. It refers to God's ruling in the hearts of men. But that's a minor point. What you are basically saying is that if I don't agree with your presuppositions ("free will context") I won't agree. You are correct. there is a reason I don't see it in a "free will context" as you suggest. Because it's not in the Bible that way.

He COULD have brought them to repentance, but like Israel, He could not. And how do YOU presume that He did not "do everything" that He could have????[/quote]Because he said he didn't. He said, "If I had done this there, they would have believed." He did it elsewhere so we know that che could have done it; but he chose not to.

 

Sigh. I'm not sure why I'm bothering to respond since you obviously have trouble with the English language.

I said God chooses, and we don't know why He chooses one over another. I know I'm elect. But I can't tell you WHY God chose me. I can, however, tell you lots of reasons why I didn't deserve it.

I can't speak for Calvin. I haven't read more than a few lines of what he wrote.

You can't even understand the simple sentences I've written in English, so what kind of weight do you think it carries for YOU to say "It's scriptural!" I hope you read scripture better than you read my posts. You couldn't possibly read it any worse.

 

Because he said he didn't. He said, "If I had done this there, they would have believed." He did it elsewhere so we know that che could have done it; but he chose not to.[/QUOTE]

Huh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!