MY "PROPHECIES"

Hello Robert. Long time no see!! Where have you been hiding out? In the wilderness eating locusts and honey???

 

Nonsense. The First Amendment guarantees freedom of speech. Now what is illegal is forcing someone to repeat it... Of course that's been illegal since the early 1940s.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think the word God is in the Constitution. It was intentionally created as a "secular" document. The only place it mentions religion in the document proper is stating that there shall be no religious test for a person to hold office. The First Amendment to the Constitution also mentions religion, but does not use the word "God."

Maybe you are thinking of the Declaration of Independence?

Maybe, but is it true (our nation trusting in God)? Is God interested in that slogan being on money? I doubt it. Personally, I'd rather not see the name "God" trivialized like that.

Holidays are celebrated because people want them. The government is not likely to take them away unless people no longer want to be off on those days.

Well it does seem to be a blatant violation of separation of church and state to pay a person to pray before congressional sessions. Why can't local church volunteer people or provide ministers to Congress instead of paying for that position out of our taxes?

I don't believe many of your predictions will come true... but if they do, it will be because the Supreme Court has decided that the Constitution does not support these things because of institutional separation of church and state guaranteed by the First Amendment to the Constitution -- something that Baptists agitated for with Jefferson and Madison and many of the other founders.

Yes, the ACLU supports many positions that I disagree with, but they also support religious liberty and separation of church and state, something I agree with strongly.

Christians seem to make the ACLU the whipping boy for everything they don't like in the world... What in the world has happened to American Christendom?

[ July 05, 2002, 01:59 AM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]

 

Well you could have least written us a letter telling us when you would return before the price of stamps went up!... Then again dry cleaning a camels hair girdle probably took a while trying to figure out how to get out the locusts and wild honey???... Brother Glen

 

Why do they pray before a congressional session? They don't seek the Lord's guidance for what they do. For congress to begin with prayer is blatant hypocrisy.

Ernie

 

I totally agree with the second half of that statement. How have we become so complacent as to allow a disease on Christendom and America like the ACLU to wield so much power? That's the sin.

Where did this can of crap about "separation of church and state" get started anyway? Certainly not from the Constitution. (Ok, that's a lie - it is found in article 52 of the Constitution of the former Soviet Union!) It is not in the U.S. Constitution at all. It was from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists ascribing there should be "a wall of separation between Church and State..." Further reading makes clear what he inted was that State never be involved in Church, but Church should be intimately involved in State. The letter was virtually unheard of until 1947 when an ACLU lawyer by the name of Leo Pfeffer used it in his response to the "Everson decision".
One should wonder how one man's opinion should somehow get twisted over time to eventually involve the Supreme Court anyway.

Furthermore, the Mayflower compact in 1620 clearly states the birth of America is for “the glory of God and the advancement of the Christian faith.”
The New England Confederation of 1643 stated that the one single aim of the American colonies was “to advance the Kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to enjoy the liberties of the Gospel thereof in purities and peace."
The Trinity Decision of the U.S. Supreme Court in 1892 came to a unanimous conclusion that “These…add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation….”
And I assume we all know what the Declaration of Independence states about God as Creator.

I could write pages on the ACLU as a cancer on Christendom. But you should ask yourself why their suits are over 80% targeted on Christians and/or their values? We've lost the right to pray before games, manger scenes in public at Christmas, etc. while the religion of Humanism slowly engulfs us. We've gained the "right" to abort our babies as a "choice" based on a lie.
I'm weary to the bone of Christians that defend these slugs as somehow helpful to America or our liberties. All I've seen is an ever quickening decline of my liberties as a Christian because my beliefs or morals might "offend" an atheist or a Buddhist or someone who is gay, etc. Isn't that part of my rights as an American? Americans have the right to be an offense. I certainly get freely bashed as a Christian.
Sorry but Jesus was an offense, also, and His beliefs and morals are being demolished by scumbag lawyers.
The ACLU is a disease.

[ July 07, 2002, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: Optional ]

 

Before all of that can happen--no offence--but I've got something in my gun cabinet that will take care of a lot of that mess. And if you happen to notice--my house will be the one painted red!

 

I totally agree with the second half of that statement. How have we become so complacent as to allow a disease on Christendom and America like the ACLU to wield so much power? That's the sin.</font>[/QUOTE]Freedom?

Be careful, the principles are found in the New Testament. They are also embodied in the First Amendment to the Constitution. Baptists made sure they ended up in the Constitution.

I've heard that... but I've also heard it isn't true. I'm not sure either way, but even if it is, that does not mean it is wrong.

You have further readings? Please tell me about them. I'm sure scholars all over the world would like to read them as well.

Everything I've read about Jefferson (including his own writings) and the history of the disestablishment of the Episcopal Church through "The Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom" tells me that the Court's reading of the Danbury Baptist letter is absolutely correct. You may want to read some Supreme Court rulings sometime, they will give you quite an education on Constitutional history and law.

Actually, real historians and Baptists knew about it. (The name of the case is "Everson v. Board of Education" I am well familiar with it and am looking at the text of the case as I type this.)

Maybe because it is an brief and accurate description of what the founders intended... Baptists have also held that opinion for several hundred years.

The problem with using these quotes is that they came well before the Constitution and the founding of our political government. Also, the same people who wrote what you cite here believed in persecuting Baptists because they denied infant baptism and did not participate in the worship of the Congregational Church.

I am well aware of "The Holy Trinity v. United States (1892)". (I also have a copy of the decision in my files.) This decision is greatly distorted by people like David Barton and others for their own purposes. The decision is actually in regard to immigration law. The Church of the Holy Trinity (a Roman Catholic Church) wanted to a priest to come from overseas to pastor here in the United States. The immigration law at the time heavily restricted immigration and would not allow the church to bring the priest over. The church sued saying the government was restricting the free exercise of religion and was hostile to the work of the church. The Supreme Court immediately overturned the lower court decisions and said that the church has a right to call anyone they want to be pastor and the government has no reason to use immigration law against it -- end of decision. One of the justices went on and added some commentary, apparently to silence critics, to demonstrate that the United States has always regarded religion as sacred and that the government held no hostility against religion.

Of course today we have some "Christian historians" taking this case out of context to "demonstrate" that the United States government was founded on Christian principles...

Again, this was before the Constitution -- the real political start of our government.

Apparently not all Christians share the same values...

You can pray anytime you want, just don't use government-sponsored events and forums to try to persuade others.

Nonsense, churches do it all the time. Just don't ask the government to do it for your religion.

Only if you let it... What happened to the church taking the gospel to the world without asking the government to do it for them?

True. I am also opposed to abortion.

I'm not please with all of the causes the ACLU has supported, but there's not reason to make them the whipping-boy for everything you don't like.

Your rights end where other people's rights begin. Of course, the Supreme Court decisions are not about offending people, it is about using the coercive power of the state to exclude others.

Yes. But Christians seem to be *way* too sensitive.

Christ's beliefs and morals cannot be damaged by attorneys, but they are often misrepresented by Christians

So is judgmentalism and ignorance.

[addition]
Looking back over this 7 hours later I realize I come across as very harsh and dismissive. I didn't intend to do so. I just get very frustrated when good people get taught a bunch of lies by people like David Barton, D. James Kennedy, Tim LaHaye and others about American history and the myth of "Christian America."

These lies must be confronted and the church needs to get back to telling accurate history. It's okay if we disagree about what we should do, but it is not okay to blindly repeat the lies we have been told.

[ July 08, 2002, 12:11 AM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]

 

The Anabaptists and Baptists though I believe it is clearly in scripture. Separation of church and state is a cardinal Baptist doctrine. The problem we often see today is not this but Freedom from Religion not Freedom of Religion. It is a thin rope to walk because the majority at times is tempted to persecute the minority.

In my area a Wiccan group came and set up a bookstore and coven. If I remember right, the property owner was pressured about his lease with this group by Christians and they received threatening phone calls until they finally moved away. Christians destroyed their testimony here.
While I detest Wiccan theology, they have a right to worship.

I personaly do think the day is coming when this country will become a tyrant against Christianity but it will have nothing to do with "under God" (a referance to a American generic deity) being removed from the Pledge.

 

Kiffin I disagree with what you said and will give you scripture to back up my comments

II Corinthians 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land... First of all God people are influenced by others sometimes and that is the way it is. They live in the land and cannot help being tempted if the temptation is there. There are enough temptation in the land without adding to them and I can name many right now that have risen in the last thirty years. Why did they because we allowed them even though we knew they were evil.

There is no accountability anymore turn on the TV or pick up the morning paper and one can see how evil our land has gotten... btw my doctrinal decendants were Anabaptist as Primitive Baptist doctrinal lineage goes through this line and on. The things that we tolerate in this country they would have never tolerated and eliminated that evil from among their ranks... Delivered them up to outer darkness so to speak. Israel did the same thing when it became known and if they didn't God dealt with the offender and then them because they allowed the evil to remain in the camp... You are a minister and should know these things!... Brother Glen

 

Bro Glen, II Corinthians 7:14 is referring to God's covenant people "My People" (OT Israel). It can be applied in a secondary sense to the Church but the scripture is not applicable to the United States because the USA is not and never has been God's covenant people. The U.S. Constitution is the law of the USA not the Bible. If the Government tells Wiccans they can't worship, it can also tell Christians they can't. That is the great danger of marrying Church and State that resulted in great persecution of our Anabaptist and Baptist forefathers.

The Anabaptists lived in probably a more wicked time than we and opposed the Government acting as a defender of Christianity. A marriage of Church and State is a great evil that results in the church being corrupted by the state.

[ July 08, 2002, 12:09 AM: Message edited by: Kiffin ]

 

Enlighten me please.

Either you misread or misquoted me. I saidreading - singular. Your sarcasm is out of place.

Perhaps you can show how it wasn't founded on Christian principles. Even conveniently throwing out every document before the Constitution doesn't get you there.

How convenient. Let's throw out the Magna Carta, Hammurabi's Laws and the 10 Commandments while we're at it.

A simple act of prayer is persuading others? Seems like "others" are way too sensitive. By these standards, the vendors at the 4th of July picnic on city property shouldn't have been allowed to sell those pork ribs. They might persuade Jews or Muslims. Oops, there was a Christian prayer offered also - call the ACLU.

What happened to a level playing field? You distort what I said.

In conclusion, the tag line all dissenting Christians are branded with.

My feelings exactly. I still challenge you to show me how this nation wasn't founded on Christian principles.

 

Enlighten me please.</font>[/QUOTE]I shall try. See the end of this post.

Either you misread or misquoted me. I saidreading - singular. Your sarcasm is out of place. </font>[/QUOTE]Okay, I may have jumped over you a little hard here. David Barton, a so-called "historian" used to talk about Jefferson's Danbury Baptist letter as if there was an additional section only he seemed to know about. The letter to the Danbury Baptists is very short, so I find it hard to believe that it could be misinterpreted except if you create a completely different perspective on Jefferson that ignores his work in Virginia to disestablish the Anglican church.

Perhaps you can show how it wasn't founded on Christian principles. Even conveniently throwing out every document before the Constitution doesn't get you there.</font>[/QUOTE]Actually, I maintain that the institutional separation of church and state embodied in the First Amendment is one of the highest Christian principles there is... And I don't want to "throw out every document before the Constitution" either -- they tell the story of how the emerging nation came to separation the institutions of church and state.

How convenient. Let's throw out the Magna Carta, Hammurabi's Laws and the 10 Commandments while we're at it.</font>[/QUOTE]Nope, let's keep them and pay attention to what they say.

A simple act of prayer is persuading others? </font>[/QUOTE]If this "simple act of prayer" is ceremoniously portrayed where others are required to attend, either because of the law or because of a government-sponsored event, is definitely persuading others.[/qb][/quote]

If the 4th of July participants were required to attend the event, yes, it is a violation of liberty.

What happened to a level playing field? You distort what I said.</font>[/QUOTE][/qb][/quote]

Didn't mean to distort... That's exactly what the separation of church and state does, no one has a home-field advantage with religion. Everyone is on a level playing field.

In conclusion, the tag line all dissenting Christians are branded with.</font>[/QUOTE][/qb][/quote]

Not Christians, but the sins of assuming the worst of others and refusing to check the facts before acting or condemning.

My feelings exactly. I still challenge you to show me how this nation wasn't founded on Christian principles.</font>[/QUOTE][/qb][/quote]

I'll deal with the issue of institutional separation of church and state in a the Baptist Theology section in the next day or so (when I get some time to write a detailed response to your question). Look for it.

[qb]

 

Thanks BB, I will.
We may not differ on so much as the discussion has developed. We'll see.

 

With all due respect, I wish people would read Romans before quoting the bible.... The New Testament Church is Israel... There is no more Jew, or Greek.....

 

Good thots, esp. about the fact that the separation of church & state is a fiction invented by some lame brains and adopted by lamer brains. However, the culprits are not the "scumbag lawyers" but rather liberal judges (granted, who are also lawyers) egged on and supported by a liberal, godless press and supported by a largely "silent majority" called Christians who do not cry out aloud against the evil. Some do. But too many are far too willing to be far too silent.

 

Separation of Church and State is not an invention of Lawyers but is a Baptist cardinal doctrine. Note the 1925 Baptist Faith and Message.

 

Problem with that is what do you do when Islam is running the state? Still think there will be "separation of church and state?" Not likely. The idea that we can remove God from the state is ludicrous and has led to our current state of affairs. Our roots, our foundation was Christian, not Muslim. Thus, for us to espouse Christian ideals and principles is entirely in keeping with our heritage. Moreover, to think that one can divorce his or her Christianity from his or her public office is also foolishness. We are defined by our adoption.

In an ideal world, one would have these little robots who do not have a liberal thot in their heads scurrying about doing the government's business and not biased in any way shape or form against Christianity. But those of us who have lived long enough, know that ain't so. Real world is different.

Separation of church and state is a concept that sounds wonderful on paper. But reality says otherwise. People DO act in and our of their own bias, their own religious bias and one can tout the "separation" notion all they want but it'll not change the nature of a human being.

We have every right, in my opinion, to seek to bias the government back towards God, to have the nation as biased towards God as Solomon sought to do. (1 Ki 8:22-23) "And Solomon stood before the altar of the LORD in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven: {23} And he said, LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath, who keepest covenant and mercy with thy servants that walk before thee with all their heart:"

Solomon did not believe in separation of church and state. He believed Israel should follow the one true God. He did not believe that godless secularists could run a government properly. Nor do I. When such men run the country, without the principles of God, such men will run the country with the aid and assistance of Satan and their own imagination.

We have, I say, every right to insist that the nation be run according to Christian principles. Actually, it isn't so much a right as it is a duty to seek to have our nation run by such principles.

Just my belief. Realize others may not share them. Realize some good, godly men and women have thot entirely differently on this matter. But I still say they are and were WRONG.