O.S.A.S. (Once. Saved. Always. Saved)

Comments from what i read on page 12:

Craigbythesea: "Before you were saved, you had the freedom that God
gave you to choose to follow Him or anyone else. Do you mean
to suggest that when you got saved, God took that freedom away from you?"

Yes. I will suggest it. When and if you got saved, you lost the
freedom you had before. You cannot unchoose God. Christ will keep you
in His hand, and God keeps Christ in His Hand. You are NOT going to
fall out.

Now, a third of the New Testament seems to be about what we are
supposed to do, seeing as how God has saved us, is saving us, and will
save us.

OSAS is about the veracity of God, not the infidelity of we humans.

Maybe a better way to put it would be ISAS = IF SAVED, always saved.

BTW, over a dozen times in as many boards i've started a topic:
following God as a saved person. This deals in turn with all the
verses, especially in the New Testament, that deal with what we are supposed
to do, now that we have been saved to the uttermost.
None of them ever got past what would be our page five. Nobody really
wants seriously to think about what the Bible says we should do, because
God has saved us, is saving us, and will save us.

But people love to argue about OSAS, cheap grace, and numbers walking aisles.

Well, 360 made decisions at my church sunday morning last.
They decided NOT to come. The other 140 came to church. ;)

BTW, Hebrews 6:4-6 is proof positive of what OSAS means.
Only most people don't understand reverse Greek Logic. You aught
to see Reverse Polish Logic

Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (NASB, 1995)

In this reverse Greek Logic you hypothesise something then you show
that it leads to a logical inconsistancy. Thus you prove what you hypothesized
is FALSE. What is FALSE here is "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made
partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away"

Christ will NOT be put to open shame.
Christ will NOT be crucified again.
Those who "once been enlightened
and have tasted of the heavenly gift
and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God
and the powers of the age to come,
will NEVER FALL AWAY. They have eternal life and they HAVE
ETERNAL LIFE NOW.

Craigbythesea: " ... the doctrine of OSAS is of substantial threat to the body of Christ.

Truth is not and cannot be a threat to those who are in Christ.
Instead of endlessly loosing the anti-OSAS argument, shouldn't you
be encouraging the rest of us to do good works of the same measure as
what God has done for us? Not to meddle in anothers's work for God, but
isn't that what the Bible says to do?

 

1 John 5:13 (KJV1769):
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name
of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life,
and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

The bolded part:
ye have eternal life
is the definition of OSAS. I.E.
OSAS = Once Saved, Always Saved = ye have eternal life

Assurance of Salvation = "ye may know that ye have eternal life"

 

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother" (1 John 3:9-10)

The servant could not have been born of God. The servants heart revealed his identity. He was not a child of God or he would do the things his Father does, like forgiving.

Jesus paid the penalty for the sins of the entire world. You could say that God has forgiven all debt at the cross. All sins are forgiven except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

So by process of elimination, unless you think the word of God contradicts itself, this parable is teaching a different principle than a Christian having forgiveness revoked.

I believe it is teaching how true faith is revealed in a person. I forgive out of the love of God within me and not because it is a command. If it isn't from the heart then it isn't true forgiveness. God did say "from the heart".

We have many letters given us by inspiration that help us understand the things Jesus taught in parables. I rest in them rather than trying to sift through parables alone which can make one do alot of head scratching. :D

You said before that sin does not break the covenant. So why do you think this sin has broken it? To me it appears that the servant didn't have the new covenant to begin with.

God Bless!

 

You are dead on Ed! You have studied and are showing yourself approved unto God, a worker that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Good job!

God Bless!

 

Good Morning everyone.

It is snowing outside right now at around 9 am Yuck!!! It supposed to receive 8 to 12 inches of snow today through tomorrow! It is only April 23. Snow is enough for me. Now it is springtime. Oh well, I have to be patience and accept that God is in HIs control of weather. Here is MICHIGAN!

Anyway.

Ed, you say: {Quote]Yes. I will suggest it. When and if you got saved, you lost the freedom you had before. You cannot UNchoose (emphasis mine) God. Christ will keep you in his hand, and God keeps Christ in His hand. You are NOT going to fall out.[/Quote]

You saying, before we are saved, we had freedom what we want to do. I understand what you means, according what the one of the five points of Calvinism - "Total Deparvity". That mean we are out of control, being crook. When we believed in Christ, then we lost the freedom. That is what you mean we are in God's robot, when we once accept Christ, no way that shall reject or deny Christ, because Christ have power to hold us in his hand. Your view or intepreting sound like we are God's puppet or robot, that God holds us in his hand, that we cannot fall out off from his hand.

I know where verse that you mentioned of 'hand' finds in John 10:28-29. That passage is often citied or quoted from baptists to prove of security salvation, that we cannot lose our salvation, because Christ have power to hold us in his hand, no one take us away from His hand.

Notice John 10:27 tells us, IF any person hear God's word, and believe it, then FOLLOW Christ. THe passage or context of John 10:27-29 tells us that, Christ promises to us, Christ still hold us in His hand, while we follow Him all the time.

OR... if a Christian stopped follow Christ, then He might loose a Christian out of his hand, if a Christian decides want to turn away and join with the world again, also want to leave from the Lord, THEN Christ might loose a Christian out of His hand.

You says, we are NOT going to fall out.

Luke 8:13 warns, "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for A WHILE BELIEVE, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY.

This verse tells us, a person who hear the gospel, accept the gospel, and believe the gospel, same as accept Christ, believe Christ, but for a short time. When the temptation comes upon a person, then fall away, because not yet developing person's fruit, or built the foundation of Christ. A person can fall away because of lack learning God's Word, or not yet growing in the Lord. Many baby Christians EASY falling away, because most mature Christians failed to discipline baby Christians to growing in the Lord.

Also, I am sure that many osas people use 2 Tim. 1:12 proves that God is able to keep us. Notice Paul says, "For this which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I HAVE COMMITED UNTO HIM against that day." This verwe telling us, Christ is able to keep us IF we commit to Christ TILL the judgment day at Christ's coming. Means we have to dedicate our life to Christ, SO, Christ is able to keep us. OR... if we do not commit to Christ, then Christ might not keep us.

Notice next verse 13 says, "HOLD FAST the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus."

Paul commanded us, that we must keep God's Word, and faith in Christ, same as we have to obey Christ, and to endure for Christ till the judgment day at Christ's coming.

Look next verse - 14 "That good thing which was commited unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us." This seems support Eph. 1:13 that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. But, notice verse 14 tells us, the doctrines that we must hold them whilst Holy Spirit being sealed in us. Notice 1 Thess. 5:21 "Prove all things; HOLD FAST that which is good."

Now please look 2 Tim. 1:15 "This thou knowest that all they which are in Asia be TURNED AWAY FROM me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes."

Paul tells us, that they already turn away from him. He speaks of fall away, not only they were turn away from Paul, also, they turn away from God too! Because they do not hold fast what they learned from Paul. They went in their own ways again.

You discuss on Heb. 6:4-6.

You say:

I disagree of your intepreting of Heb. 6:4-6.

I understand Heb. 6:4-6 very clear. It tells us, they already tasted the salvation, when they accepted Holy Spirit, and did understand the gospel of salvation, then later, they fall away, then it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to be remain saved, when they fall away. And they cannot be renew and repentance- IF they fall away.

****understand, KJV was witten in classic English grammar, in my understand of Heb. 6:4-6 telling us, IF a person fall away, then it is IMPOSSIBLE for a person to be remain saved while fall away same time.

Bible does not saying that we cannot repent again when after we falling away. Luke chapter 15 teaches us very clear about the prodigal son, that we can have another chnace to repent again to be alive again.

Heb.6:4-6 explains that way: Once for a person who ALREADY believed, accepted, received the gospel, received Holy Spirit, accepted Christ. Became saved, but then later a person fall away, then a person is no longer remain saved, become lost again according Luke chapter 15 of a prodigal son.

Notice Heb. 6:9 says, "But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak." This verse speaks of Paul and others who are concerning about any person's salvation, not want to see a person being falling away abd become lost again.

Notice Heb. 6:11-12 say, "And we desire that every one of you DO show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope UNTO THE END: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises."

This telling us, that we must be endure with our hope till the end according Heb. 3:6, & 14.

Obivously, Heb. 6:4-6 warn us, that we do NOT be falling away, OR... if we fall away, then we are no longer remain saved, become lost again according Luke chapter 15 of the prodigal son!

You discuss of 1 John 5:13. This verse seems prove that we have security salvation as we have the assurance of our salvation, when we believed in Christ, that we may know that we have eternal life.

Noitce above 1 John 5:12, the word, 'hath' in Greek & classic English word, means, present and continue sense of 'have'. 1 John 5:12 tells us, whosever having the Son having life; and whosever that having not the Son of God, not having eternal life.

That means, a person who have relation with Christ as faith and hold on Christ shall have eternal life. OR. if a person does not have relation with Christ, no faith, and not hold on Christ shall not have eternal life.

John 3:16 tells us, whosever believing on Christ, shall never go hell, but have everlasting life. OR... if a person remain not believing on Christ, shall go perish to hell.

Romans 11:19-22 warn us, if any perosn stopped believing on Christ, shall be cut off same with John 15:6.

The first epistle of John talking lot about the relationship between Christ and us as individual, that we ought to walk godly life for Christ.

The word, 'know' does not always mean beging assurance or no doubt. It is speaks of having relationship with Christ. For example in Genesis 4:1 "And Adam knew Eve", it is speak fo sex, but, more than that, Adam has relationship with Eve, that he fellowed with his wife as relationship.

Also, In Matt. 7:23- Christ shall say to them, "I never knew you:" This does not mean that Christ does not know who is that person, or Christ is not an omniscience. Of course, Christ is an omniscience, He knows everything, He knows all people. This verse tells us, Christ have NO relationship with person, because a person does not walk with Christ, that why Christ shall say to a person, "I never know you:"

See? My point is, the first epistle of John talking lot about the relationship between us and Christ as individual, that we ought to walk godly daily for Christ, walk with Christ daily, fellowship with Christ daily. That how that we shalt get know Christ more throughout our lifetime while we walk with Christ.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

The passage itself says otherwise. It is spoken and applied to Peter and the disciples, the servant is the Father's servant, and the servant is forgiven of his sins.

 

Why would John write this if there were no possibility of losing one's own faith in God?

It is obvious that he is trying to assure his listener that so long as you believe on the name of the Son of God (have faith in God), you have Eternal life.

What if a believer should change his mind and no longer believe on the name of the Son of God? Does that one retain eternal life? Man changes his mind about nearly everything during his life time. Why should his religion be different?

 

Why would John write this if there were no possibility of losing one's own faith in God?

It is obvious that he is trying to assure his listener that so long as you believe on the name of the Son of God (have faith in God), you have Eternal life.

What if a believer should change his mind and no longer believe on the name of the Son of God? Does that one retain eternal life? Man changes his mind about nearly everything during his life time. Why should his religion be different? </font>[/QUOTE]. . . so long as you believe on the name of the Son of God(have faith in God), you have Eternal life."

Allow me to present this scenero---a person is saved----he lives years and years without "changing his mind"(as you say)---then the man contracts Alzimer's Disease----and in a fit of delusion---under the influence of the disease--- he changes his mind---what then??

 

Good question!

Can anyone know with absolute certainty that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

Do you have a personal knowledge that this is an absolute truth? Or is it not so for you?

Answer these questions and you will have the answer to your own.

Absolute personal knowledge of a truth is why anyone who is born of God never stops believing Jesus is the Son of God. Can't happen!

It ain't religion! It is relationship! This is why John says "you know".

God Bless!

 

I think it is John who says otherwise ;)

" Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin ; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother" (1 John 3:9-10)

God Bless!

 

Wes, Outwest: "What if a believer should change his mind
and no longer believe on the name of the Son of God?"

Why would that ever happen? Why would Christ who is holding on
to you let you slip through his loving but nailscarred hands?
Why would God let Jesus mess up like that?

Which part of the following are you having problems with?

OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved) is about the steadfastness
of God, NOT about the wishywashyness of human beans.

Wes, Outwest: "Why would John write this if there were
no possibility of losing one's own faith in God?"

One might not yet have faith in God.
There is no possibility of losing = "inadvertently misplacing",
God's Salvation.

Revelation 7:10 (HCSB = The Holman Christian Standard Bible)

And they cried out in a loud voice: Salvation belongs to
our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!

Salvation doesn't belong to humans, salvation belongs to God
and to the Lamb. How can you give away God's Salvation?
I don't believe you can give away that which belongs to God.

 

Why would John write this if there were no possibility of losing one's own faith in God?

It is obvious that he is trying to assure his listener that so long as you believe on the name of the Son of God (have faith in God), you have Eternal life.

What if a believer should change his mind and no longer believe on the name of the Son of God? Does that one retain eternal life? Man changes his mind about nearly everything during his life time. Why should his religion be different? </font>[/QUOTE]. . . so long as you believe on the name of the Son of God(have faith in God), you have Eternal life."

Allow me to present this scenero---a person is saved----he lives years and years without "changing his mind"(as you say)---then the man contracts Alzimer's Disease----and in a fit of delusion---under the influence of the disease--- he changes his mind---what then?? </font>[/QUOTE]How does anyone know the victim changes his mind? Having lived with my mother while she suffered with alzheimer's, I don't know of a point in her later struggle when she was able to make a coherent statement one way or the other. We could not determine whether or not she even had the ability at that point to have faith in anything. Do I believe she has everlasting life? Yes I do, because she continued telling others of Jesus up to the point where she could no longer talk with coherency. She lived for three more years after that not knowing what was going on, who we were, where she was and even who she was. What a hidious disease.

 

Then God deals with it.

"Sin" in that verse means ongoing sin, not individual sins, for we all still commit sins after we are born again. John doesn't say otherwise, so let's get back to Matt 18: How can a servant of the Lord be forgiven of all his sins, and not be a Christian?

 

Ed Edwards wrote,

The fact that no can fall out of God’s hand is absolutely irrelevant to this discussion. No one is arguing that anyone can fall out of God’s hand. However, the New Testament speaks of many who chose to rebel against their Savior and follow either someone else or their own personal desires. These facts no scholar of OSAS would deny. They would deny, however, that these people actually lost their salvation and went to hell for eternity. Some OSAS Baptist pastors, however, do teach that these wayward Christians will spend the Millennium in hell. Others teach that they will spend the Millennium in a “suburb” of heaven where there will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

That is true. Unlike the Bible and New Testament theology, OSAS ignores the infidelity of Christians and the consequences that are so graphically spelled out in the Word of God.

I agree with you here. OSAS is one of the most destructive doctrines that any man has ever brought into the church and the consequences have been devastating beyond description.

Ed, have you not read my many posts in which I have argued for obedience to Christ and his teachings. Have you not read my many posts on Romans 6, 7, & 8 in which I have strenuously argued that in Christ by faith we as Christians can and should experience in our personal lives victory over sin?

 

Ed Edwards wrote,

Baptist commentators are more divided over the interpretation of Hebrews 6:4-6 than they are divided over any other passage of Scripture other than Romans 7:1-25.

Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

About half of the Baptist commentators say that “those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,” are born-again Christians. And those of them that are more learned point to the Greek text from which these words are translated and show how these words and phases were used in patristic literature for water baptism, the Eucharist, the laying on of hands, etc., making it expressly clear that this passage of Scripture can be speaking only of those who have been truly saved. And they continue to write that their falling away does not result in their damnation, but the loss of some sort of rewards.

The other half of the Baptist commentators say that “those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,” could not be born-again Christians because the fell away and were damned to hell for eternity.

The very large majority of other commentator say that “those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,” are born-again Christians who fell away and were consequently damned to hell for eternity.

 

Ed Edwards wrote,

The doctrine of OSAS has, ever since its inception in the 16th century, brought a false sense of security to countless millions of wayward Christians who are now likely spending eternity in hell because of this most destructive false doctrine. Wayward Christians today need to be warned of the potential of eternal damnation just as they were for the first 1500 years of the church. Not all of them will respond favorably to the warning, but some will just as they do in the churches who preach the warning today.

They also need to be taught the historical interpretation of Romans 6 – 8:4 and thus be made aware that they have we have been buried with Christ through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life and be “freed from sin.”

Rom. 8:1. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4. so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

(All Scriptures NASB, 1995)

 

DeafPosttrib: "Luke 8:13 warns, "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for A WHILE BELIEVE, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY.

This verse tells us, a person who hear the gospel, accept the gospel, and believe the gospel, same as accept Christ, believe Christ, but for a short time."

NO, i don't think that is what the verse tells us.
This tells us about people never got saved in
the first place, they received the word with joy and even
tryed to live it a bit, but they were destined to fall away,
for they had no saving faith. They believed they would try
the written (or spoken) word of God but never tryed the
Living Word of God which is Messiah Jesus.

DeafPosttrib: "I disagree of your intepreting of Heb. 6:4-6."

I grant you the Liberty in Christ to be wrong.
Fortunately Romans 10:9 does NOT say

That if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth the Lord Iesus,
and shalt beleeue in thine heart,
that God hath raised him from the dead,
and be OSAS
thou shalt be saued.

DeafPosttrib: "My point is, the first epistle of John talking lot about the relationship between us and Christ as individual, that we ought to walk godly daily for Christ, walk with Christ daily, fellowship with Christ daily. That how that we shalt get know Christ more throughout our lifetime while we walk with Christ."

Amen, Brother DeafPosttrib -- Preach it!

Blackbird: "Allow me to present this scenero---a person is saved----he lives years and years without "changing his mind"(as you say)---then the man contracts Alzimer's Disease----and in a fit of delusion---under the influence of the disease--- he changes his mind---what then?? "

God gleefully tosses them into a devil's hell laughing
and saying -- Gotcha!
How absurd a conclusion :( Therefore we must conclude your
original hypothesis was
wrong: a person who has Alzihmers won't change from saved to lost.

Craigbythesea: "The fact that no can fall out of God’s hand is absolutely irrelevant to this discussion."

The fact no one can fall out of God's hand is
this discussion. OSAS means you cannot fall out of God's hand,
if you ever get saved. OSAS is the truth of the Bible.

 

OSAS = Jesus Saves

 

This scenario, and the scenario of those who become brain dead after having been saved and thus unable to continue to have faith in Christ, belong to the realm Christian philosophy rather than Biblical theology because the Bible does not address these scenarios nor any scenario similar to them. We can extrapolate or speculate as to the correct answer, but that is all that we can do.

The born-again Christian believer who, in his right mind and in full possession of his mental faculties, after having served his Savior for a period of time, and who subsequently chooses to follow another who is not the Christ or chooses to simply reject the teaching of Christ and who thus falls away, however, are scenarios that we find over and over again in the New Testament, that is, unless you believe that John Calvin was right in teaching that the entire church had been wrong about the doctrine of salvation for 1500 years—a most preposterous absurdity.

ALL Christians who love their Savior and obey Him are secure in their salvation and ABSOLUTELY NO ONE can pluck them from the hand of their Savior. But if they chose to get up and walk away, and subsequently die in separation from their Savior, they will remain separated from Him for eternity.

 

quote:
edwards: ------------------------------------------------
BTW, over a dozen times in as many boards i've started a topic:
following God as a saved person. This deals in turn with all the
verses, especially in the New Testament, that deal with what we are supposed
to do, now that we have been saved to the uttermost.
None of them ever got past what would be our page five. Nobody really
wants seriously to think about what the Bible says we should do, because
God has saved us, is saving us, and will save us.
----------------------------------------------------------

Craigbythesea: "I agree with you here. OSAS is one of the most destructive doctrines that any man has ever brought into the church and the consequences have been devastating beyond description."

Let me say it again. Nobody really
wants seriously to think about what the Bible says we should do, because
God has saved us, is saving us, and will save us.

That nobody includes those who preach against OSAS.
Come one, you think that saved people can get lost.
Doesn't God want you to spend more time telling those who might
be lost how not to get lost? But I still claim anti-OSASer really
don't want seriously to think about what the Bible says we should do, because
God has saved us, is saving us, and will save us.

Come on, it is easy. OVer 15% of the New Testament tells Christians
how they should behave, now that they are OSAS.

BTW, i know several "plan of salvation"s. You have a plan of
unsalvation?