Pastor’s responsibility during Vacation Bible

I agree. At one church I was pastoring was a couple who was in a Bible study I was leading. One time they told me their boy was going to be in a soccer tournament. The couple was having some trouble with him. He had been in trouble at school. I told quite a number of people in the church to pass the word so that we could surprise them. One by one people from the church came until there was quite a cheering section. That boy never got in trouble again. That was the end of his troubles. Years later he is still doing very well. He is the working world and a strog Christian today. On that soccer field I was able to build some good friendships in the community. I did not even realize how much it meant to others in the church and community to see me there.

 

Awesome GB!

 

Dear gb,
You are making good points, but I honestly don't think that was what the original poster was talking about.
No, not every church has to do VBS. Yes, every church should be witnessing and discipling in an effective manner.

However, I believe the real issue is (as presented, most of us were not there, of course):
1) that church decided long ago to do VBS
2) the pastor said long ago that he would be there and help
3) the pastor at the last minute did not keep his long-standing commitment.

The real issue to me is do we honor our commitments to church whether as a pastor or member. I doubt that pastor would like it if something he arranged at church was more difficult to carry out at the last minute because someone dropped out.
A large group from my church is going on a missions trip this summer. Planning has gone on for a long time. Commitments have been made. People have real responsibilities to perform.
Should a person just back out at the last minute and say, "Well, my family comes first. Something else came up." Sometimes that might happen. Illness and other things occur.
However, people should keep their commitments.
There is no ironclad rule, as far as I can see, that a pastor MUST participate in VBS. However, he should not make commitments lightly nor break them lightly, and he should not expect more of his members than he expects of himself.

Karen

 

His son would want him there. He is a family person first. You need to realize a pastor has family duties. It was one game, VBs will not shutdown because he is not there.

 

Dear gb,
You are making good points, but I honestly don't think that was what the original poster was talking about.
No, not every church has to do VBS. Yes, every church should be witnessing and discipling in an effective manner.

However, I believe the real issue is (as presented, most of us were not there, of course):
1) that church decided long ago to do VBS
2) the pastor said long ago that he would be there and help
3) the pastor at the last minute did not keep his long-standing commitment.

The real issue to me is do we honor our commitments to church whether as a pastor or member. I doubt that pastor would like it if something he arranged at church was more difficult to carry out at the last minute because someone dropped out.
A large group from my church is going on a missions trip this summer. Planning has gone on for a long time. Commitments have been made. People have real responsibilities to perform.
Should a person just back out at the last minute and say, "Well, my family comes first. Something else came up." Sometimes that might happen. Illness and other things occur.
However, people should keep their commitments.
There is no ironclad rule, as far as I can see, that a pastor MUST participate in VBS. However, he should not make commitments lightly nor break them lightly, and he should not expect more of his members than he expects of himself.

Karen </font>[/QUOTE]He probblay had his son before he became pastor of that church. I am a minister and know the art of balancing. I coach my son's baseball, basketball, and soccer teams. I understand the pressure of this situtation.

The kids on that ballteam is looking at him as an example. I have gotten more kids in church thru ball than any church program.

 

A friend of mine is a former professional basball player. He came to know Christ through another friend of mine and a teammate of his. Today, he is pastoring a church that he started. Kids love him because they like his baseball stories.

What a great example of a person who can tell baseball stories and who is dead serious about Christ.

 

He's not just going to one game, he's coaching, so he probably goes to all of his son's games. If the church doesn't have a problem with it, let him go. Oh, and I know a pastor has family duties. My dad is a pastor. He would have gone to VBS and I would have alright with it.

 

Yes, balancing is difficult. And believe me, many times it is difficult for a deacon or any church member who is involved.
Everything you say is true, yet I really think we are talking past each other about two different things.

The basic thing you see is a pastor having enough time for his family. I see that, but I see the prime issue here as presented in the OP is that the pastor backed out of a long-term commitment in a way that he probably would not want other people to back out of a project he headed at church.

Pastors should not expect members to have more commitment than they do. What if other members of the VBS team had cancelled at the last minute, too? Whatever behaviour he wants his members to have is what he should model.
Putting your family in its proper place does not always mean that you break your commitments to other things. My husband puts his family first by providing for them in many different ways. Many times he can come to kids' activities. Many times he cannot because of the job.
There are sometimes other things come up, such as assisting his mother, that takes precedence.

I visited my two nieces last week. They are young and involved in Awana, piano, iceskating, gymnastics, soccer, and several other things that
escape me. There is always something coming up.
Should my relatives always be able to say at the last second that they are not going to keep a long-standing church commitment because something came up with the kids and after all they are first?
IMO, sometimes yes, sometimes no, but not automatically the idea that a kids' activity trumps church and honoring your word.

Karen

 

Karen,

It is one night Of VBS. My son is most important besides Christ in my life. If he missed VBS for his son and the team he has his heart in the right place.

This could be all-stars and believe me a son wants his dad there. My dad drove a truck and never missed a varisty football game I played in. He lost lots of money in that but he knew what was important.

I am a full- time staffer. I am over children and youth. I never play games on wednsedays or Sundays. I have forfeited make-up games on those nights. I tell my son commitmant is important. He should stick to his. He has never missed a church service execpt for sickness in his life. He knows of the importance with of a relationship with Christ. VBS scheduled for baseball season is always going to have this problem.

We are having VBS this week because they have had it this week since the start of time. We had a hard time getting men to serve. I understand completely. I would be there watching my son play all-stars also.

We only know one side of the story. We should be slow to say this or that. I know many members want staff to be at their beck and call. I sit aside family time and I ask that people understand why. I am only to be contacted if it is a matter of importance. I am thankful the church I serve understands the demands of ministry.

Simply stated my long term commimant is my family. My wife and my son. I plan around them and not others. When my son is playing me being a dad takes 1st place in earthly duties.

 

VBS is supposed to be about reaching people, but it may not always be the most effective. I pastored a small church out of seminary and we didn’t have but 16 people on a good day. On one afternoon the people knocked on doors and as a result started six different outreaches in the community that was still going on when I left. Literally overnight we more than doubled our church attendance. We had tried VBS and found it to be almost worthless because of the people in the community. Most of them worked long hours and their kids were taken care of by someone else. It would have been much more work for them to be sure their kids came to VBS. So mostly all we saw was church kids. For the most part it was a flop. Backyard Bible clubs worked much better for us. We did that at a park. Ever watch kids and parents wondering what is happening and then join in. I know of no better ministry than what was being done in Los Angeles where two friends decided they wanted to teach kids so they came by a particular area each week at the same time to meet kids after school. They came around in a truck and had a different program each week. Those two young men reached many. It was not VBS but the same as a weekly backyard Bible club. Those kids were there for about 1.5 hours each week. Isn’t about 75 hours in a years better than about 20 hours in one week.

VBS is big business for publishers. It is a very competitive business among publishing companies.

Architectural evangelism is done in a church building. Evangelism is done in the community. If you want to reach people don't wait for them to come to you. You go to them. Evangelism is not a worship service. Non-believers cannot worship. They do not know Him.

Jesus never preached inside of a church yet there are Christians all around the world.

Where do you find Jesus reaching children in the Gospels?

As a college student I participated in a church that held VBS in the city park for many years. That church was the largest church in town (about 1200 in attendance each Sunday). It didn't get there through architectural evangelism while others watched.

If we are going to reach kids then we need to where they are. I am quite positive it is not in your local bar. However, maybe you could buy the bar like a friend of mine did.

One of the best conference grounds in the US was a logging camp and bar at one time. They bought it. Ever Heard of Hume Lake Christian Camps in Hume, CA? Some of the best speakers in the world preach there. </font>[/QUOTE]Not going to argue about VBS with you. I said thatg earlier. We have used VBS and Awanas as a great outreach. I would venture to say there have been 20 or 30 families saved and discipled in our church in the last 5 years because of VBS and Awanas. VBS is an outreach ow anyone could not see that is beyond me. If you don't like it that is fine there are many other methods to reach people.

My pt was that the church chose that program and unless the pastor had a better excuse then going to his son's baseball game then he was wrong! Dead wrong! Karen made the same pts. What pastor doesn't want his congregation to back and support church ministries! If the pastor doesn't support them then don't expect the people too. I would not attend a church where a pastor conveys the message that wordly activities are more important then the Lord's work. And, unless there are other circumstances not told, that is EXACLTY the message he portrayed to the people!
What a crock.

 

How would you divorce people from that?

1 John 4:20, "If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen."

James 2:15,16, "If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?"

James 1:27, "Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world." </font>[/QUOTE]I don't have to divorce anything. There is no conflict. I can only love people by glorfing God. Show them who is lord of my life. The pastor was not showing that!

 

I agree. At one church I was pastoring was a couple who was in a Bible study I was leading. One time they told me their boy was going to be in a soccer tournament. The couple was having some trouble with him. He had been in trouble at school. I told quite a number of people in the church to pass the word so that we could surprise them. One by one people from the church came until there was quite a cheering section. That boy never got in trouble again. That was the end of his troubles. Years later he is still doing very well. He is the working world and a strog Christian today. On that soccer field I was able to build some good friendships in the community. I did not even realize how much it meant to others in the church and community to see me there. </font>[/QUOTE]Has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of a pastor skipping a church supported ministry to go to a ballgame. Apples and horses......in other words no comparision whatsoever.

Great testimoney though.

 

Its noble that Kevin apologized for his initial post. However in my opinion his post was nothing more than pure gossip. We know nothing about the pastors situation other than what some irritated member has complained about on this board.
The DOM has no business whatsoever being in on any meeting. That looks like your trying to strongarm the pastor in some way.I wouldn't think to much of the DOM if he went along with your little meeting.
Before you air your dirty laundry again on this post why don't you stop and start thanking God that you have a pastor. So he might have flubbed up which we really don't know. But if he preaches the Word every Sunday and he visits the sick and does all of his pastoral duties plus if he has a good home with a nice relationship between his family and wife you ought to be thanking God you got a good man instead of whining like a little kid on this board. Is your pastor a seasoned man or is he kind of young? If he is on the young side he might have made a mistake.
To be honest with you I get irritated just thinking about the fact that you were planning to bring the DOM to a meeting. What is he gonna do? Put the preacher back in line? Give me a break.
Maybe your church is declining in membership because people pick up on the fact that some of the membership think they run the church. Maybe the problem is with some of yall and not the pastor? I don't know. I'm just wondering?

 

That very thing happened in one church I pastored. It was nearly extinct when I came and they were continuing down the same path. After about one year I told them they didn't need a pastor. They asked me what I was going to do. I told them it wasn't what I was going to do, but what they were going to do. Less than one week later they told me they would do whatever I asked. That was a scary thought because it then put me in the driver's seat. Those people allowed me to stretch them and teach them how to do ministry and study the Bible. That church became a tremendous blessing to us. One year after I confronted them they gave us a huge love offering. They have done very well since that confrontation. Today they own 20 acres of prime land and are continuing to do what they were taught.

I wanted to teach them to do ministry and they always had some new idea of a program but they were not doing ministry. They were brainwashed into thinking if they followed what came out of the denomination it would work. The problem was they were depending on a program instead of God. When they began to pray and depend on God, He worked in miraculous ways. Ways beyond our dreams. We asked God for the seemingly impossible and He gave us everything we asked for and more.

2 Chronicles is just as true today as the time it was written.

"If I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or if I command the locust to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among My people, and My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

 

Karen,

I did not read any posts other than the very first one. If the Pastor made promises to others that he will attend VBS, then he should be at VBS.

VBS is a fine outreach tool for many churches, but not all churches. At my church, it's proven to be nothing but "babysitting" for parents that are already members at other churches.

--Jeff

 

Karen,

Is not coaching a longstanding commitmant also? Those kids need him also. He made a commimant to his son at conception!!! VBS will go on one night without the pastor or even a whole week.

 

Absolutely!!
You and I are in a great deal of agreement. But re: the facts as presented in the OP, it is not automatic to me that you make a commitment, pastor or not, church or not, and you give it up at the last minute.
My father could not go to every event I was in. My husband could not go to every event our kids are in. My brothers-in-law, etc. do not make it to every event.
They all made/make it to every one they can. But "can" is fluid. SOMETIMES, not every time, the child just has to understand that it can't be done.

There is nothing wrong with the pastor missing VBS per se. And VBS is only one method.
My discussion has been about "fulfill your commitments" unless you have a very good reason.

There were a couple of years that my youngest son had Cub Scout day camp the exact week as our VBS. He and I went to VBS on Monday and Friday and Cub Camp on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday.
But this was arranged long in advance with both groups, and I fulfilled the commitments I made to both groups.

The pastor, like anyone else, should make sure it is a really good idea before he breaks a long-standing commitment at the last minute that other people are depending upon.

As I have mentioned, a large part of my church is going on a missions trip. Some are driving the church vans.
What if at the last minute, after months of planning, one or both drivers said their child had an activity it would be better to stay home and attend, because after all, the child comes first?
Sure, you and I can construct scenarios that we would agree he should stay home. But I maintain that the general principle is "honor your commitments".

Karen

 

Karen,


I have never missed anything my son has been involved in. I have taken vacation to coach in a saturday game. I have made up time. i will not let my son down. You are only hearing one side. I am going to error on the side of the pastor.

I know the demands of ministry. If you can't understand he has 2 commitmants here. One will have to be broken. You say his son is less important than the church. He is honoring his commitmant to help coach that team. If my child is involved that is where I need and will be.

 

Hi Patrick,
I must not be making myself plain somehow. I think you and I agree on much here.
I hope you will reread my immediately previous post. I did not suggest that a pastor's son is less important than church.
I even gave a specific example about how I have missed VBS with my son.

I don't know about a particular pastor. All along, I have been trying to talk about a general principle.
Speaking again in general principles, if a pastor or someone else has two commitments, try hard not to do things that way. Be upfront and don't make two conflicting commitments. If something comes up at the last minute, sometimes you may need to break the first commitment.
But MANY times not. Generally speaking, honor the commitments you make. Don't be quick to make commitments and then break them.

But then, oh well, why not?
Let's get specific. If you were a van driver on my church's upcoming mission trip (planned for months) and your son's ball schedule had a game moved, would you cancel driving at the last minute because you never miss anything your son is involved in? Or would you explain to your son that sometimes hard choices have to be made?

Karen