Please Provide Input on Revelation 12:4

Then why can I not take a page from your book (post 25) and say "When the Holy Ghost of God says sucking at the breast of kings then it means sucking at the breast of kings"?

Do you not see the inconsistency in your hermeneutic?

 

No, because as pointed out already, if that were an inconsistency, then so is your position for we both grant that some things are literal whereas others are not. Measure others with the same measure you apply to yourself.

 

Not true. Up until that last post you gave no indication that you were willing to grant anything to be nonliteral. You even reinforced that impression by that "when the Holy Ghost of God says X its X".

So I am glad that you are not totally 100% literalist, just as I am not 100% nonliteralist. So, with that in mind, we have to use different criteria to interpret Scripture. One good criterion is the analogy of faith, which is why I brought up those other passages. Or, as Christ said, Scripture cannot be broken.

 

Rev 12:4
And his tail draweth the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon standeth before the woman that is about to be delivered, that when she is delivered he may devour her child.

Rev 12:9
And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.

 

Dispies. It's like their Bibles don't have these passages:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;,,,,,,, Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev 1: 1, 3

I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown. Rev 3:11

Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe for the earth and for the sea: because the devil is gone down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time. Rev 12: 12

And behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book.,,,,,,,,,, And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.,,,,,,,, Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.,,,,,,,,,,,,,, He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus. Rev 22:7,10,12,20

Dispy twist: Plain time statements given in the scriptures, i.e., "this generation shall not pass away", or "the time is at hand", or "a very little while", or "must shortly come to pass", or "I come quickly", really means thousands of years...and still waiting.

 

Oh come one. 1/3 is not a symbol. It's not a vision. It's a fraction. It's Math.
Moving on.

 

Numbers cannot stand for something else? What about 666?

 

It all comes down to how deep one goes into covenant theology. If the Church replaces National Israel and/or awards to itself the promises given to the Jews as noted by Moses and the prophets then it really becomes a matter of degrees of how much you can call symbolic and how much call literal.

 

I believe rev. 12:4 refers to a third of the angels following Satan in rebellion against God, and throwing them to the earth signifies he caused them to sin by rebelling. They're the ones now being kept in tartarus til the final reckoning.

As for preterism-PHONY AS A $3 BILL! History proves that.

 

Open a thread.

 

My plate is too full right now. I have several discussions going on in different sites.

Just tell me: Is 666 a symbol?

 

The Bride of Christ. After the Rapture at the "last trump" in Revelation 10:7; 11:15; and in Revelation 12:5, it describes the Bride of Christ being "caught up unto God," and ruling with Christ for 1000-years with a rod of iron. This is both a look back at chapters 10 and 11 when the "man child" was raptured, and also a look forward to chapters 19-21, when the Bride of Christ actually begins to rule and reign with Christ for 1000-years.

I believe the 144,000, along with the two prophets of Rev 11:3-13, are also caught up at the same time as the Bride midway into Daniels's final week.

 

How is the bride a man child? A greater mismatch is hardly conceivable.

Also, Christ was caught up unto God:

Luk 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

 

‘How is the bride a man child? A greater mismatch is hardly conceivable.’

I used to think the same thing and was thrown off by the terminology and had to allow the context of Scripture to override my reasoning on that. How is a male Christian going to be a bride for Christ? Well, we know the Bride consists of both male and female Christians, so it is a matter of terminology. Does all of ‘mankind’ include females? Yes, it does. All of mankind includes the whole human race of both males and females.

‘Also, Christ was caught up unto God”

Christ was not ‘caught up’ but rather received and carried up into ascension. "Caught up" is the same word used for the rapture of the Church in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Every single mention of Jesus' ascension is described using the words of which indicate a gradual rising (like climbing a mountain), not a quick and violent snatching away as (harpazo). Revelation 12:5 is clearly connected to the Rapture event. Paul was also “caught up” to the third heaven and mentioned again being “caught up” into paradise (II Corinthians 12:2;4). The same word ‘caught up,’ is used all four times in these verses.

Also in the context of this chapter, it clearly shows the ‘woman’ then fleeing into the wilderness for 3 ½ years during the latter half of Daniel’s week, clearly a future even (Rev 12:6). The resurrection and ascension of Christ had already occurred. And yes, Revelation takes us back in time and forward in time as a movie scene, nevertheless, Revelation in general is all about the future.

 

He won't, not individually, only as a part of a spiritual body; but his physical body will be male.
As a body, the church is only ever spoken of as female, never male.
Jesus Christ the bridegroom won't be marrying another bridegroom, brother.

His parting is our pattern. Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

We rise as he rose, and we ascend as he ascended:

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Investing "harpazo" with violent snatching while divesting "taken up" or "caught up" from similar force of motion is an arbitrary distinction.
If you think the taken up (Acts 1:9) wasn't "violent snatching" compare Elijah's rapture where he is taken (2Ki.2:10) by a whirlwind (2Ki.2:11) so violent it parted them both asunder (2Ki.2:11). If that ain't a snatching, nothing is.

Enoch's rapture is a figure of our own, for he was a Gentile that was raptured before the judgment.
The Bible describes his rapture as took (Gen.5:24) as it speaks of Christ being taken.

Who is Israel, not the church, as identified by Joseph and Jacob's interpretation of Joseph's dream in Genesis 37.

 

How were the 12 stars a thing at Christ's birth? The northern ten tribes were never brought back to Israel.


John is just comparing Satan to the description he applied to Israel. For Israel, John went all the way back to the dream Joseph had. Satan's description goes back at least 500 years prior to Joseph.

 

Can you see the look of betrayal on the faces of those angels when Satan locked them up himself in the pit, and the Adversary got to run around free?

 

1Ch 9:1 So all Israel were reckoned by genealogies; and, behold, they were written in the book of the kings of Israel and Judah, who were carried away to Babylon for their transgression.
1Ch 9:2 Now the first inhabitants that dwelt in their possessions in their cities were, the Israelites, the priests, Levites, and the Nethinims.
1Ch 9:3 And in Jerusalem dwelt of the children of Judah, and of the children of Benjamin, and of the children of Ephraim, and Manasseh;
1Ch 9:4 Uthai the son of Ammihud, the son of Omri, the son of Imri, the son of Bani, of the children of Pharez the son of Judah.

Luk 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;

 

5 out of 12 is not 12 out of 12. The restoration was in 1948, not 3 BC. The only thing literal is that Jacob had 12 sons. That is literal. At one point in time, (The Flood) 33% of angels rebelled and were put in the pit. They are not released until the 5th Trumpet in Revelation 9. They are released for the first woe. During the 7th Trumpet, they are cast out of Heaven again. Obviously they do not survive past Armageddon. John does not explain where they go the second time. My guess is the Lake of Fire.

 

It's 6 out of 12 (Judah, Benjamin, Levi, Ephraim, Manasseh, Asher) not to mention:
Mat 4:12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;
Mat 4:13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:
Mat 4:14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
Mat 4:15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;

The Gentile presence notwithstanding, so it's 8/12.

Anyway, I'm satisfied the point was made that it wasn't only Judah and Benjamin that returned - which was the point contended - and that 12 stars was a meet representation of Israel at the time of Christ's birth.