Romans 3:10-20

No it doesn't prove total depravity which is more about inability than just sin.
MB

 

I don't see man being so sinful that it leaves him unable. When we die to our sins are we actually dead?
MB.

 

Of course the unregenerate do not have the Spirit...

 

Luther asks "what's left" but sin if you take away the Spirit who battles the flesh.

 

But it shows how depraved the flesh is.

 

Romans 3:10-20 doesn't need the word Total Depravity to convey the images and symbols without God... It reeks with it!... There really is no words to show what man is without God and how far we have fallen... Can anyone truly understand the wickedness of the human heart without God?... The price it took to save our wretched putrid soul?

Paul gives us a taste of what it is warts and all... To excuse it, is not to see Sovereign Grace... You gong to climb into heaven some other way?... It took Jesus Christ 100%, his work and his work alone to save you... Is the born again child of God Total Depraved now?... A thousand times NO!... But we need to be reminded of what we were without Christ to understand what we are in Christ... Brother Glen:)

 

Exactly! Spot on!

 

Let me see if I understand.

Are you of the thinking that in every human that has ever breathed is the undiminished ability to hear and respond to God?

If so, do you have some Scripture to support that thinking?

The reason I ask is because your statement concerning Ephesians 2 think it is showing no inability.

If you had looked up the passage and.read just the very next verses it says:

4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. ​

Did Paul mention any human ability, or did Paul state God did the work?

Do you agree with total or some partial ability?

 

Good question.

How dead is dead?

But, I noticed you point to “when WE die TO our sins.”

Now this is a completely separate topic in which the believer by the authority of the Holy Spirit must daily slay the worldly impulses and the evil infesting, in which we all are wrestling.

As one matures and experiences the work of the Holy Spirit, more areas are exposed in which the fleshly worldliness must be dealt.

Consider a checker board named “me.”

Prior to salvation all the “me” was dead in trespass and sin. So much so that not a single square was alive. No light for growth.

God moves in and brings life and light. The board becomes alive, but the squares are still needing to be cleaned up of the debris.

As each square is cleaned, another is taken on and the process moves along. However, sometimes when cleaning, sin creeps back onto a previously cleaned area. John exposed this when saying that if we sin, He is faithful and just to forgive and cleanse us from unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9).

Is it possible that the presentation of total depravity has in some way been inappropriately considered as part of a believer?

I will point you back to post #48. Paul didn’t leave off but continued to express the work of God in replacing that totally dead with that totally alive.

 

"MB,

This is what you say;

This is what scripture says;
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

'Them':
14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged. 1 Cor 2

'Us':
12 But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God. 1 Cor 2

 

So you believe the spirit is dead. When we are saved our flesh is dead to sin. Wow we are completely dead and it's too late to worry about it now.

True but it never indicates an inability. If a mans spirit is dead so is his flesh, It is the spirit that quickens the man.
MB

 

Again, the Gospel is a key means by which God shows Himself to godless man, Romans 3:11; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4: 2 Tinothy 2:25.

 

[QUOT^E="kyredneck, post: 2538854, member: 9690"]. . . they . . . [/QUOTE]That "they" in 1 Corinthians 2:14 refers to the things of God.

 

The first scripture is the saying of a fool. The second is a presupposed theory as is the third. The word If means given circumstances that may or may not apply. It does not mean fact.
MB

 

I think the most consistent position that accounts for these verses, and upon which we should all agree, is that no person is able to believe on his or her own. (Denying Pelagianism)

Beyond this, it's a matter of how we view God's grace in enabling a person to believe.

For those within a Calvinistic theological framework, total depravity is a matter that is only remedied by the Holy Spirit's causing sinners to believe (the gift of faith), which they would otherwise be unable to do.

For those within a more Arminian theological framework, total depravity is a matter that is remedied by prevenient grace as the Holy Spirit enables sinners to exercise a choice to believe or not to believe, which they would otherwise be unable to do.

If you think a person naturally has the ability to choose, apart from prevenient grace, you're getting into semi-Pelagian territory at minimum.

 

Are you saying they are saved with out faith. That faith is something we aquire directly from the Holy Spirit. This is false The Bible never says the Holy Spirit gives us faith

Man is a sinner before Salvation everyone knows this yet no where in scripture does it ever say man is totaly depraved This is a false Augustinian theology.

Oh no: the dreaded semi-Pelagian territory. Belief is a choice and your theology contradicts Scripture.

No one has ever proven that man has any disability to believe. It's really ridiculous to make such a claim. The Calvinist claims the spirit in man is literally dead until regeneration over looking the fact the flesh cannot live with out the spirit to quicken his flesh. The spirit of man may be considered dead as is after Salvation we continue to die daily to sin. When we die to sin does it mean we literally die? of course not we consider our selves dead to sin not literally dead. We are only dead to sin, in that we do our best not to sin anymore. Then sin it's self considers us dead. Although there is no man with out sin even after dying to it.

Grace can only be had through faith there is no Grace with out faith.

I'm not an Arminian. I follow Christ not the likes of men I hold to the doctrine of Christ no one else.

Calvinist do not take God's word literally. They do like the JW's do with scripture they misinterpret it on purpose to support there doctrine..
MB

 

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Gal 5

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. Ro 7

 

Well, we have shown you otherwise, but it certainly doesn't say faith is initiated within man.

Yet we have shown you verses that say we have no spiritual ability to follow God without God granting it. I don't think you know what total depravity actually means.

There are none that seek after God. Consider it proven.

So Paul and Christ are ridiculous?

You don't believe this? You should study you Bible.

Or is there no faith without Grace? Remember, there is none that seek after God. We cannot come to Christ unless it is given by the Father.

Yet you deny what Christ taught in this very post.

And of course this is false. Strawman.

And this is now bearing false witness against us. You falsely accuse us of misinterpreting Scripture on purpose! How dare you make such an accusation?

 

There is a reason semi-Pelagianism is rejected--it isn't even remotely biblical. I'll grant that those closer to Arminian thought often get unfairly linked with semi-Pelagianism, but my statement was not pejorative. If anyone believes that they have the ability to choose to believe without the enabling of the Holy Spirit, that person is, at minimum, wading near or within semi-Pelagian waters.

No one is claiming that a person is saved without faith. The theological debates come down to a matter of process--does a person have faith because the Holy Spirit works on that person certainly and effectually to cause them to believe, or does a person have faith because the Holy Spirit has enabled them to make a choice (including the choice not to believe) that a sinful person would not otherwise be able to make?

Both of those understandings are orthodox. They can't both be true, but they are both reasonable ways of interpreting Scripture.

Lastly, the terms Calvinist and Arminian are merely helpful shorthand. No one is denying that the One to follow is Christ.

I'm reminded of 1 Cor. 1:12-13 (KJV):

"Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"

I don't think it's helpful to worry about the labels for different theologies. I would hope that all of us are sincerely trying to understand what God's truth is. Doing that doesn't mean we have to reject the work of Christians who have come before us. Our task would simply be to test their teachings by the standard of God's Word.