Romans 6.....is there water baptism in the passage, or Spirit baptism ..primarily?

The word Christ used simply meant to repent concerning that one sin. Remember Peter's Great Confession. Peter was already saved. In no way was Christ suggesting that Peter had not been "saved," in any sense of the word. He was suggesting (prophetically) that he would need to repent of his future denial of him. And he would in great sorrow and many tears. Are you suggesting that Peter lost his salvation?

 

:confused:


Peter, and the other eleven were regenerated, but conversion took place when the Holy Spirit fell upon them in John 20....I kinda think that John 20 and Acts 2....could be the same account, but not entirely sure....

Before you jump me, remember Judas was one of them and he went with them when they went and healed the halt, blind, deaf, dead, &c. Judas was given the exact same gifts the other eleven had, imk...

 

Judas was a false believer. We learn from Mat.7 that there will be many that will stand in the day of judgment and call Jesus Lord, having done miraculous deeds, but Jesus will say to them "Depart from me I never knew you." Judas will be one of them. Satan works miracles too.

Nothing happened in John 20:22
John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
--It was purely symbolic; prophetic of Pentecost which was still to come.
It was like a pledge of that which they were to receive. This fits the context. Look at the next verse:

John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
In the beginning of Mark it clearly says that only God can forgive sins. The apostles were never given the power to forgive sins. This refers to the gospel which would be preached all over the world; the Great Commission being carried out starting at Jerusalem, beginning at Pentecost. It is the gospel that brings forgiveness of sins. The power came through the preaching of the gospel. Jesus is looking ahead. It is prophetic, as is verse 22.

Is this the account you are referring to?

If they were converted they were saved. If they were saved they were regenerated.
The only thing that happened to them on the Day of Pentecost is:
1. They were filled with the Holy Spirit--Peter being filled with the Holy Spirit, preached unto them.
2. The Holy Spirit manifested Himself with signs and wonders. That had nothing to do with any aspect of salvation.

 

By mere implication, God spoke through an ass, Saul prophesied, so they were saved, too....


That doesn't negate the fact Judas, being a non-believer, STILL had the same gifts the other eleven had....this is in response to your previous post, Brother DHK.....

 

Satan entered into Judas. Jesus called him the son of perdition. He was doomed from the very beginning. Whether or not Jesus, out of grace, gave an unregenerated person gifts of the Spirit on this one occasion is not entirely and dogmatically answered. We don't know for sure. The scriptures are silent here. I would take the opinion of no, simply on Biblical principle that God does not give His gifts to the unsaved. If you have a different opinion on that particular subject I am not going to die for it.

That doesn't change my view on John 20:22,23 however. It is not addressing any of the problems with Judas. He was an exception. I think we need to realize that.

 

Where does John 20 use the word "conversion" or "converted" in describing his breathing on them????? If Jesus does not use it there then why do you? When Jesus used "converted" it was referring to his thrice denial and his going back to fishing because of guilt.

Do you remember Matthew 16:15-17? He was already a convert of Jesus Christ. He already professed Christ under the baptism of John. John preached conversion to Christ for salvation - Jn. 3:36; Acts 19:5.

You never responded to the contradictions placed before you in my last post but simply bid me adieu.

 

Everything I posted in my blog is all I have to say. If you disagree, c'est la vie...

 

Yeshua1

:laugh: No...if you understood the issue or my posts, you would not offer this falsehood. If you would answer the questions I asked you several times to answer you would come closer to truth...

This is another falsehood...show where you got this idea???:confused::rolleyes:

 

if the OT saints were "only" regenrated/coverted, yet did not possess the Holy spirit, how could they be witrh Christ, and not in hell?

 

What was the covenant sign to enter into a covenant with God, pre-cross?

Was is water baptism or circumcision of the foreskin?

Did Abram receive the promise from God whilst in circumcision or uncircumcision?

 

The Biblicist

This verse and others say differently;

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

I am not going to micro manage God.If he says that these activities were so before the world was...I believe Him.


generally I have been supportive of your posts on many issues....this issue is not your strongpoint at all. I will answer some of you statements, then let you re-consider what you have offered...You study much so I believe in time you will modify your ideas on this.

This does not follow at all.

3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

16 Mine unformed substance Thine eyes saw, And on Thy book all of them are written, The days they were formed -- And not one among them

You will not find me saying any such thing.

 

There is no way he or anyone else could give an answer. I read your entire blog. You never made one mention of any verse in John 20. One cannot comment on something that is not there.

As for the other scriptures, many are taken out of context, or just plain misinterpreted.

 

You're just as obstinate as the others. You've never conceded anything since I've been in starting in 2007. You're like them....no debating....just here to show how much you "know"....

 

Well how about Iconoclast speaks for himself! I did not say that.

What I said can be proven by this verse you offered from 1 pet3...you just bolded the wrong part....

20 who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah -- an ark being preparing -- in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water;

21 also to which an antitype doth now save us -- baptism, (not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the question of a good conscience in regard to God,) through the rising again of Jesus Christ,


The figure once again is based on the reality.....the answer of a God conscience toward God, comes from having peace with God...because of Spirit baptism ....the indwelling of the Spirit sealing us after giving us peace with God in justification.....

Jesus being raised as the captain of our salvation;

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

You cannot separate the redemptive work of God from the Covenant of Redemption that Jesus accomplishes.

The like figure....speaks of the picture outwardly of what has already taken place inwardly...{the answer of a clear conscience, a good conscience}
by the work of the Spirit, jn 3
that is the only sense in which your "baptism" saves you, as it speaks to Spirit baptism .

Sure...but the correct pictures are given in scripture....the flood waters of death
the deadly waters of the RED SEA and I will give you a bonus one...Jonah immersed in the belly of the great fish...yet comes through
:thumbsup: a type of resurrection.

39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Jesus used the same theology....He explained it, and furthermore in psalm 69 a messianic psalm the same language is used;
69 Save me, O God; for the waters are come in unto my soul.

2 I sink in deep mire, where there is no standing: I am come into deep waters, where the floods overflow me.

3 I am weary of my crying: my throat is dried: mine eyes fail while I wait for my God.

4 They that hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of mine head: they that would destroy me, being mine enemies wrongfully, are mighty: then I restored that which I took not away.
14 Deliver me out of the mire, and let me not sink: let me be delivered from them that hate me, and out of the deep waters.

15 Let not the waterflood overflow me, neither let the deep swallow me up, and let not the pit shut her mouth upon me.

It will be as I just suggested to you the biblical pictures of the work of Spirit baptism..
that is the only LIKENESS that is valid...Jesus was not buried in water literally after all..:thumbsup:

it is a public confession outwardly, of the Spirits work inwardly...work through it Biblicist...that is how I understand it...look at it in a fresh way.

 

Circumcision and baptism have nothing in common. Baptism does not take the place of circumcision. If that is your outlook on Scripture you ought to become a Presbyterian.

Baptism does not place anyone in a covenant.
Baptism does nothing to a person but get them wet.
It is purely symbolic. It is done in obedience to the Lord, and symbolizes our death to our old life and our rising again to a new life in Christ. It does not regenerate. It does not make one more holy. It simply gets them wet. It is purely symbolic done in obedience to the command of Christ, and that is what we see in Romans 6.

 

What do you mean by that? We were discussing John 20:22,23. You replied to Biblicist that everything you have to say on the subject was in your blog. I went back to your blog and read it all very carefully. First, I found no reference to John 20, the verse being discussed. Why did you refer him to your blog if you said everything you had to discuss on it was there? It is not there!

Plus, I find much to disagree with, with Scriptures being taken out of context. But you should expect that.

 

The Biblicist

Consider this list....from the book Calvinism/arminianism by WR.DOWNING

This spiritual union of the believer with Christ—the reality of the infallible, eternal redemptive purpose may be described and explained in the following terms:
• It is an organic union. Believers become members of Christ as members of an organism, albeit this organism is spiritual. This spiritual union is to find expression in the local assembly (1 Cor. 12:27; Eph. 4:11–16; Phil. 1:27).
• It is a vital union. The life of Christ becomes the dominating and energizing principle within the believer (Gal. 2:20; Rom. 6:11–14; 8:5–14; 2 Cor. 13:5).
• It is a spiritual union. Not only is this union spiritual in nature, it is mediated and sustained by the ministry of the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:9–16; Eph. 3:16–19).
• It is a personal union. Every believer is personally or individually united to Christ directly as to his spiritual life (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 2:20).
• It is a legal or federal union. As the believer was once identified or in union with Adam, so he is now in union with Christ (Rom. 5:12–21). All the legal or covenant obligations of the believer rest on or are met in Christ, and all the legal or covenant merits accrue to the believer.
• It is a reciprocal union. This takes into account both the objective and subjective aspects. The initial action is on the part of Christ, to whom the believer in faith reacts, interacts, or reciprocates. This is not only union, but necessarily communion with the triune Godhead through Christ (Jn. 14:6, 9, 16–17, 20; Rom. 8:9–16; Eph. 3:16–19).
• It is a transforming union. Believers are changed into the image of Christ according to his human nature. This began at regeneration, when the image of God was restored in principle in righteousness, holiness of the truth and knowledge (Eph. 4:22–24564; Col. 3:9–10) and continues throughout the Christian experience as believers are “conformed to the image of his Son” in maturity, sufferings, etc. (Rom. 6:6, 14; 8:9–10; 14–17, 29; Eph. 2:10).
• It is an inscrutable union. This is what old Divines termed the “mystical union” of Christ and his own, i.e., this union is mysterious in the sense of being incomprehensible and incapable of intelligent comprehension in our finite state.
• It is an indissoluble union. This relation, identification or union between Christ and the believer can never be dissolved. Note that, in biblical teaching, justification by faith has an immediate relation to assurance of faith (e.g., Rom. 5:1–3). This relationship is both necessary and logical because of the reality of the believer’s indissoluble union with Christ.
Thus, the believer’s union with Christ stands at the very center of all redemptive truth and forms the objective scriptural basis for the final perseverance of the true people of God.

Cristw/| sunestau,rwmai. “With Christ I have been co–crucified.”\Aor. ptc
If taken literally, this would teach sacramentarianism (a conferring of grace through physical means), i.e., baptismal regeneration. …Ihsou/ Cristou/( diV ouv evmoi. ko,smoj evstau,rwtai kavgw. ko,smw|Å “Crucified” (evstau,rwtai) perf. pass. 561

Positionally, the believer is already in heaven, i.e., as good as there already—because he is “in Christ”.

This vital union is the basis of the believer’s assurance in the infallibility of the redemptive purpose.
The believer’s union with Christ necessarily evidences itself in Christian experience. Cf. Rom. 6:1–23, despite some modern Dispensational teachers who hold that the believer’s position “in Christ” is merely objective and has no relation to the daily life.

 

continued;
The view that the believer possesses two natures: the “old” nature and the “new” nature, and that these two natures are identical to the “old man” and the “new man” is not scriptural. Note the following:
(1) The “old man” was the unregenerate personality, which was co–crucified with Christ. The result of the spiritual, moral, and intellectual transformation at regeneration is the “new man.” Cf. Gal. 2:20; Eph. 4:22–24; Col. 3:9–10 (Cf. the aor. inf. of result in these two passages); 1 Jn. 3:9.

(2) The ministry of the Holy Spirit enables believers to live a holy life (Rom. 6:14; Gal. 5:16–17).

(3) In Rom. 7, the Apostle does not blame the “old man” or the “old nature” for his spiritual struggle, but indwelling or remaining sin and corruption.

(4) The “crucifixion of the old man” is not an experience to be sought, but a fact to be reckoned.

(5) Any view other than the preceding cannot be consistently squared with Scripture.

 

the application;
4. The Application (v. 11). This is the very first practical admonition or exhortation in this epistle. It is logical or intellectual in force and introduces the parallel between our Lord and believers.

Note that the term “dead” is different from the vb. used previously in this chapter.
Believers died to the realm, reign, dominion and kingdom of sin and are now alive in the realm, reign, dominion and kingdom of grace by virtue of their union with Christ.

This statement is a reckoning from reality, not merely from an ideal, i.e., this derives from a true, scriptural assessment of who and what the Christian is in Christ.

This is neither an ideal to wish for nor an ideal to strive for. It is the

Sanctification is an act [definitive], a position [“in Christ”], and a process [practical or progressive] in the context of Christian experience.

V. 8. “...if we be dead with Christ.” eiv de. avpeqa,nomen su.n Cristw// (aor., “died”). pisteu,omen, in the sense of confidence or persuasion, bringing together as a certainty union in both his death and resurrection as these relate to the believer’s experience. “Shall live” (o[ti kai. suzh,somen auvtw/|/) refers to the present life in the realm of enabling grace. It is the fut. of logical force, not the eschatological future.

V. 9 eivdo,tej [perceiving] o[ti Cristo.j evgerqei.j evk nekrw/n ouvke,ti avpoqnh,|skei( qa,natoj auvtou/ ouvke,ti kurieu,eiÅ His death was a once–for–all break with sin.

V. 10. ga.r avpe, qanen( th/ |a`marti,a| avpe, qanen evfa,pax “unto sin” emph. pos. ej fav pax, “once for all”. His death fully and finally dealt with sin. He now continues to live only with reference to God (o] de. zh/|( zh/| tw/| qew/|/).


nekrou.j, corpses, wholly or totally unresponsive to the solicitations of sin. th/| a`marti,a / (arth., ref. to sin as a ruling entity that seeks to enlist our services. We are no longer in her service).
evn Cristw/| VIhsou/, “in,” not merely “through,” emph. our union and identification with him.

 

There is an old man/old nature. It is the same old nature that we have when we were not saved. After salvation it is not eradicated! Please read any Baptist Confession of Faith under the section "Depravity of man." To say that the Old Man is now dead and cannot struggle with the new man is to deny the depravity of man. In that respect it puts one outside of orthodoxy.

The old man is not dead. If he were you would be sinless. Why then do you still sin.
Does the new nature sin? Do you attribute sin to the Holy Spirit, to the new nature? Who then? The body doesn't sin. The body (flesh) is just chemicals. It is controlled either by the new man or the old man. Who is controlling your body when you sin??

Jesus said "take up your cross daily." What did he mean? The cross is a method of execution. Every day one must put themselves to death. That is a command--a command that Paul carried out--"I die daily."

Enablement is there; but you must put in the effort. The new man must conquer the old man. That is what Paul did in Romans 7:25.

He battled the old man, and conquered it in verse 25--"I thank God through Jesus Christ my Lord that with the mind I serve the law of God..."
He had to use his mind to conquer the old man. It wasn't automatic. There was no passivity here. It was a battle, a battle that he describes from verse 14 to the end of the chapter.

"to reckon" is a verb. It means: consider, count, think, etc.
Rom.6:11 Reckon yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin.
Consider yourself; Count yourself. Think of yourself to be dead to sin (Geneva). It is something you must do. Therefore it is an experience. It is an act, a work. Put yourself to death every day.

Your view does not square with scripture at all.