Romans 6.....is there water baptism in the passage, or Spirit baptism ..primarily?

DHK

I have ...you denied it and tried to dismiss it....right here-

Quote:
10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;they were said to be baptized unto Moses......they were not Immersed...the ungodly Egyptians were immersed however....

They identified with Moses and were able to pass through the waters of death safely......
these waters of immersion were death
the waters of immersion were death to the world of the ungodly in Noahs day. yet Noah and the others in the ark identified with the message God gave to Noah...they passed through the waters of death safely...being rightly related to it...

in the same way...Those in UNION with Christ..died and rose identified with Him to the Father...in Saving union......by Spirit baptism .......after that is true by new birth...the once for all baptism is put to their account by the indwelling Spirit as the earnest of their inheritance...then and only then is WATER baptism a "picture" of this work.

Presbyterians speak of infant sprinkling as a sign and seal...that they administer claiming it identifies the infant as being in the covenant...externally.

I do not believe this is accurate after the cross....so I would not as a Baptist argue for a "picture" first.....I look to the reality first...picture secondary, important , but secondary.
but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with

All of the above is off topic; it has nothing to do with the topic. Read the title of the thread.

I answered how they relate...you ignore it....look ..you do it again here;

I answered here;
Quote:
What did he mean:
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

he is a new man...in the old body of flesh.......

the old man...in that same body of flesh, when he was unsaved...obeyed the motions of sin...

The new man...in that same body of flesh...now mortifies the motions of sin.

he does not get freed from that body of sin and remaining corruption until he leaves that body to be in the presence of the LORD. That is the summary of Romans 7:24-25
22 for I delight in the law of God according to the inward man,

23 and I behold another law in my members,

warring against the law of my mind,

and bringing me into captivity to the law of the sin

that [is] in my members.
24 A wretched man I [am]!

who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?
25 I thank God -- through Jesus Christ our Lord;
so then, I myself indeed with the mind do serve the law of God,

then you say this;

If you do not believe it exists...how can you believe it....get serious.lol

 

Let me quickly answer this.
You haven't given an adequate answer yet. It still doesn't answer the question that arises out of Roman 7:23-25.

Your premise is this:
The new man...in that same body of flesh...now mortifies the motions of sin.

So I ask again, If it is the new man that is alive in the flesh, and the old man that is "mortified," or the motions of sin are mortified, then when you sin, is the sin attributed to the new man, which is from the Holy Spirit?
Secondly, what happened to the doctrine of the depravity of man, as described in the Baptist Confession of Faith? Don't you believe it any longer?

 

Yes he did answer you, thoroughly and acurately, you just disagree with his answers.....

Here's what I think about his post...

 

Then perhaps I can't understand his explanation. Understand this. We have a sin nature. No one is born "innocent" as Adam was. The body in and of itself is not sinful. David said: "I am fearfully and wonderfully made," and praised God for his body. Think how it is God who keeps the heart beating and not ourselves. There is nothing inherently evil about the body or the body of this flesh. From birth to death it is made up chemicals: hydrogen, nitrogen, carbon, oxygen and many others. You cannot put blame on carbon and oxygen for sin. There is absolutely nothing evil in the body itself.
Paul calls it a tabernacle. It is just a shell. Someday we will shed it for a better one. There is nothing sinful about a tent (tabernacle). It is a house. We will get a new one, a better one.

Within this body dwells two natures. An old one which we have had from birth. It has never been eradicated. If it had been we would be perfect and sinless like Christ. The new nature is from the Holy Spirit. The new nature does not sin, or sin is attributed to God. It is the old man that sins. This clear from Romans 7, and the struggle that Paul wages between the two natures.

The crucified life can only be understood through a key verse in Romans 6:11: "Likewise reckon yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin."
It doesn't say we ARE dead. We are to reckon ourselves to be dead. That is an active verb which demands action on our part.

Romans 6:11 Thus also consider yourselves also to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. WEB

(Geneva) Likewise thinke ye also, that ye are dead to sin, but are aliue to God in Iesus Christ our Lord.

(MKJV) Likewise count yourselves also to be truly dead to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The Geneva sheds the most light here. Think of yourselves as already dead to sin. You are not dead, but you must think of yourselves that way. The battle is in the mind. In fact that is the way Paul phrased it in Romans 7:25,
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
--Victory will only come through the mind.
It is the mind that controls the body as well. The body is not sinful. Paul has already spoken about that in Romans 6. Yield your body as instruments of righteousness.
The flesh, here, is the old man. It is the old nature, that principle of sin that dwells within that will give into sin and its consequences. The law of sin is stated in Romans 6:23--the consequences of sin is death.

What Icon cannot explain is this:
1Cor.15:31 "I die daily."
Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Jesus spoke of being crucified every day as Paul spoke of dieing every day. It is not a one time act. Every day one must take up his cross and die. That is also what Paul meant by "reckon." The old nature is not dead. It lives. Every day it must be put to death.
These are two verses that Icon cannot handle.

 

DHK

This is an important topic...there is much to say on it.If you are looking for a one sentence answer or magic bullet you will not find that.

Yes...so now we can proceed.

No the new man is now in charge of the body , in this body of flesh and bone that still is awaiting a change into the glorified body which will not have the motions of sin and corruption that this body has.

We do not "mortify"....the old man...He has already been crucified Rom6:6...

we do not chase around a dead old man.....seeking to crucify him in some subjective way. That teaching has its roots in Wesleyan perfectionism which if you know Oberlin theology{your friend Finney:laugh:} you would also be aware of this:wavey:

What we do find is that we are to Mortify .....not the old man....but rather..the deeds of the body. The term mortify....is only written in two places, however the teaching is all throughout the NT....see here-
3 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

In verse 1-3 Paul explains as in Romans 6 ... because of who we are in Union with Christ by Spirit Baptism..[risen with Christ]in vs 1[dead to the reigning power of sin].....we are to live in light of who we are.

How do we do this...he tells us what we are responsible to do...while in this body....
5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth;

He describes what are members which are on the earth are...notice...the old man is not on this list...but these things are on the list
fornication,
uncleanness,
inordinate affection,
evil concupiscence,
and covetousness, which is idolatry:

notice also...here he does speak of the old man having been put of, and the new man already put on.....

5 Put to death, then, your members that [are] upon the earth -- whoredom, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and the covetousness, which is idolatry --

6 because of which things cometh the anger of God upon the sons of the disobedience,

7 in which also ye -- ye did walk once, when ye lived in them;8 but now put off, even ye, the whole -- anger, wrath, malice, evil-speaking, filthy talking -- out of your mouth.

9 Lie not one to another, having put off the old man with his practices,

We now put these things off...mortify, deprive them of power, nullify them.



10 and having put on the new, which is renewed in regard to knowledge, after the image of Him who did create him;

The new man is not sinlessly perfect. We are responsible to repent, we are responsible to watch unto prayer, we are responsible to mortify,we are responsible to pursue holiness of life and conduct! Failing to obey Jesus as Lord is sin .Failing to obey what He commands is sin.

The Holy Spirit does not do this for us. He gives us the power to do it.
We have no excuse to sin at any time.


When I asked Y1 to answer the 9 questions it was because he offers these false wesleyian ideas, that he has picked up along the way, but cannot answer how biblically God has instructed us to do so.
Instead he makes broad general statements that do not follow the scripture as Judith called him on.

He says we do not do it.....we rely on the Spirit, as if the Spirit does for us, what we are responsible to do.

I fully believe in it, however I fully believe God has made us new creation , new man Christians.

Do not lie DHK...bearing false witness is sin......I have answered you twice that I recall on this...

You do not like my answer when I described identifying with Christ. You do not like it as you have bought into wesleyian perfection mythology...which leads to a sinner seeking a subjective experience on a fools errand, rather than following biblical sanctification.

I will show this later on if you want in yet another thread.

 

Con1

Thank you for your support...and the slam dunk guy!

Originally Posted by convicted1 View Post
Yes he did answer you, thoroughly and accurately, you just disagree with his answers.....

Here's what I think about his post...

 

this false teaching will be addressed in the new thread.

 

The new man is not in charge of the body all the time. It must be put to death on a daily basis (1Cor.15:31; Luke 9:23).
Paul also says:
Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
--This has nothing to do with salvation, but rather sanctification in the life of the believer. He is speaking to mature believers. Every day we are to put off the old man and put on the new man--put off the old nature; say no to the old nature, and yield ourselves to Christ, to the new nature of the Holy Spirit.

Colossians 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
--The same concept is taught here. He puts it in past tense. Nevertheless it is a daily chore that one must do themselves. It is an act of submission.

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
--It is not a done deal. You have to be the one not to allow sin to reign in your body.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
--You are the one that must not yield your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin. Why? Your old nature will cause you to do this. It is very active causing you to "do the things you don't want to do," as Paul said.

Only symbolically. You must consider the old man crucified. He isn't dead as it says in verse 11. You must consider him as dead; live as if he is dead. If he was dead you would never sin; but you do, and you know you do.

NO, the old man chases you around and causes you to sin. Have you now denied the depravity of man? Look at your Confession of Faith, and review the doctrine. It is Finney that denied the doctrine of the depravity of man, and you are now agreeing with him, not me. You are confused. The old man still exists. That is why he must be crucified on a daily basis (Luke 9:23).

If you have to daily mortify the deeds of the body, then who causes the deeds of the body that have to be mortified? The Holy Spirit? No! It is the old man who is not put to death!

Your life is not dead is it? Paul speaks in a metaphor there.

What spirit baptism? There is no spirit baptism there. You are not even able to define it much less demonstrate it from the Bible. There is no mention of baptism at all. You are reading your opinions into the Bible. They are not there.

Mortify means put to death. That speaks of the crucified life. Every day you must put to death that corrupt nature that would cause you to sin.
Remember this verse:
Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

They come from the old man; the old nature, which you still have. Do you really think that they come from the new man, the Holy Spirit?

But that is not how it is put in Ephesians. In Ephesians it is in present tense.
Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
--It is a daily action.

You once put them off. But the teaching here is that you must continue to put them off every day. Notice all the verbs in present tense. Verse five for example: Put off (now)...
It is a battle of the flesh (the old man who still lives), daily must be put off.
Just because you lied when you were unsaved does not mean you don't lie after you were saved. Be honest with yourself.

It is a daily action!
Ephesians 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Be renewed; Put on the new man--these commands are in the present tense; meant to be done on a continual basis as in every day.

"Failing to obey what He commands is sin." So who does sin? The old nature or the new nature--the Holy Spirit? Is it God that you are attributing to sin to, since the Old Man is dead in your view?

But you do sin, and that is the rub.

You can't answer the same type of question when applied to yourself as I demonstrated.

According to 1Cor.6:19,20, our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. We belong to Him. That doesn't mean we will not sin. The old nature still is there and will be until we die. It is not eradicated. Read your Confession on the Depravity of man.

Jesus said that you must take up your cross daily. You cannot believe what you believe and also believe the words of Jesus at the same time. No you haven't successfully answered that. Your beliefs contradict the words of Jesus.

Jesus did not speak of identifying with him. He spoke of being crucified, and being crucified daily. You don't like those words. You don't like what they mean. You try to make them mean something else. In the same context he said "deny yourself." What does that mean? In no way does it mean "Identify yourself with me."
You gave me an opinion which is entirely against Scripture. So you have not answered adequately answered the Scriptures.
For that you call my into question my beliefs as

"wesleyian perfection mythology leading one into a subjective experience on a fools errand."

That kind of language and accusations, truthfully needs an infraction.
If you can't debate the topic without that nonsense then withdraw.

 

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Rom 7:22-24

Is that the body that is the temple of the Holy Spirit? I believe so.

Now I believe that Spirit was received because of the baptism Luke 12:50 of Jesus, which I believe to be the faith that came, by which the Spirit was received. See Gal 3:23 & 25 that we heard of See Gal 3:2.

Water, even in Romans 6? Not sure but let's look at , say Paul.

Acts 9:17,18 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Greek geeks again, I know no Greek.

It would be hard to water baptize one without laying hands on one. In the Greek, had two things taken place or one.

Could the above be understood as he laid hands on him and he received the Holy Spirit and arose being baptized?


I guess this also hast to be looked at in the context of Acts 10:47,48.

 

Personal grievances should be handled via pm's.

 

Anytime, Brother, anytime....

Your's was a slam dunk....

Here's Brother DHK's....

 

Brother DHK's posts.....




Swing and a "whiff".......

 

Brother Iconoclast's posts.....





Outta the ballpark....

 

This is relevant only in that it is also a picture of water baptism.

They were immersed in picture form. The waters came up on either side of them providing a path for them to walk. They were also above them.
On 1Cor.10:2 A.T. Robertson says:

Most agree that this is a picture of baptism for the believer. I don't think I have heard an exposition of this passage where baptism of the believer has not been referred to. It is a classic one. The deliverance of the Israelites from the Egyptian army is part of their deliverance from their old life of sin. The manner in which it was done is inconsequential.

1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
In picture, they were identifying with Christ. "That rock was Christ."
Their old life was left behind. They came through the waters. The Lord was their protection. They were immersed in his love and protection. They were to follow Christ in a new life to the Promised Land.

God promised never again to destroy the world by water. But sometime in the future he will destroy it by fire. The fact that it was immersed by water, and that in the future will be "immersed" by fire is, again, inconsequential. Our attention is not to be focused on the unsaved, but the saved. Noah and his family were not saved by water. They were saved by Christ. They were in the Ark. And that ark was Christ. It was the ark that was in the midst of the waters. They were in the ark, that is to say, "in Christ." Water does not save; Christ saves.

The picture must be taken in context. The context follows from chapter five. The entire chapter speaks of justification. What happens when a person is justified? His old life is buried and he is made a new creature. Thus in baptism: In picture, his old life to sin is buried or put to death, and he rises again in newness of life, as Christ did in His resurrection. There is no "union" being spoken of here.

And we are not Presbyterians. They also baptized infants.

I simply look for the meaning of the Scripture. I don't try to read into it as you seem to be doing.

Do this for me:
First define your terms:
What is it you believe? spirit baptism? Baptism of the Spirit? by the Spirit? with the Spirit? in the Spirit?
They are all different terms and using them interchangeably simply causes confusion. Choose what you believe and then define it. Define it according to the Scripture. Give evidence that this doctrine (baptism of the Spirit, or whatever) exists today.

 

Paul had to fight against following his sinful desires/thoughts of the flesh though AFTER salvation, do you?

And paul commands/exhorts us to reckon/consider the truth that we have died with jesus, raised with Him now, as the very reason to mortify and put down what the flesh desires us to do still...

The Holy spirit gives us the power to live as we ought now, but he did not eradicate that Adamic nature in our flesh, but made our spirit come alive again unto god, thaich which died in all of us as being sinners after the likeness of adam!

 

strange, that you can see things that way, as paul clearly supports the views of DHK in this topic!

 

You have not answered the questions I asked you.

You have not explained this as I asked you....this verse;
from Middletown bible church-
There are some problems with the King James translation in Romans chapter 6, especially when it comes to some of the verb tenses. For example, in Romans 6:6 the King James Version reads, "Our old man is crucified with him" but the past tense is used in the Greek and so it should be translated in this way: "Our old man was crucified with him." This is important because it is talking about something that has already happened, not something that is happening.

from earlier posts.
Carefully mark the Gk. verbs in Rom. 6:2–10. They are all in the
aorist tense and ought to be translated as a past event [“died” rather than
“dead” or “are dead”] to be reckoned as an objective, present reality, not a
merely possible state which is to be sought as a subjective religious
experience,

If all of these verses are completed action and the old man is dead...
explain what you understand this to say.....using scripture.

 

The past event of salvation (having been thoroughly explained in chapter five), is presently pictured by baptism in Romans 6:3-5.

 

DHK

I would like to respond to you, but if anytime I think your view is false...how can I respond to you without you giving me infractions?

If I say no DHK you are posting error....You are going to censor Me Correct?

So..in less I agree with you I cannot respond...you will say that if I say your post is error...it is inappropriate speech?? That is censorship.

Yet if you say what I post is like the heretic Finney, that is okay and quite appropriate?

If water baptism is a "picture"....that means there is a reality. I have partially defined that reality. You reject that reality even exists.....right here-

Before I can respond to this last portion...I asked you and RM to discuss Spirit Baptism as you understand it...as that pertains directly to the OP.

I will gladly define it....once I know your view....is this your view?

I will answer when you explain your view...and if you give me public assurance that if I post different than you, you will not censor my posts.

 

No, I am just asking for some decency Icon. If you remember some time ago Dr. Bob stated to all that it was against the rules to call one another heretics or their view heresy. You are coming close to that, with the language you use being that offensive. Just because my view is different does not mean it is false teaching and I am a false teacher. in First John, John calls the false teachers "antichrists." Is that what you are calling me?
Disagree with me. I have a different point of view. But don't call it heresy, or false teaching. You said: "I am going to start a thread on 'this false teaching.'" That is not right.
Tell me that you don't think I am correct or even I am in error. That is your opinion. But labeling people as false teachers here is wrong.

Tell me where my post is in error. That is fine.

You have been denying the depravity of man (as Finney did). Not once have you responded to this accusation. Why? I even quoted from the Confession you posted. You still don't respond. Yes, Finney denied the depravity of man, as you are doing. If you have an answer then please give it.

The reality is salvation.

I am not going to give my view until you define your terms. Otherwise we are just speaking past each other. You use the term "spirit baptism." That phrase is not even used in the Scriptures once. Why then should I believe in it? What are you talking about?
Perhaps it would be better to start another thread just on this topic.

I can't give a view on something that I don't know anything about. IOW tell me what you want your view on. "Spirit baptism" isn't in the Bible!