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Shamefastness or shamefacedness?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Logos1560, Jun 7, 2005.

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  1. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Which is the better or more accurate rendering
    at 1 Timothy 2:9--shamefastness or shamefacedness?

    Concerning this verse, M'Clintock wrote: "Blayney reads 'shamefacedness' instead of 'shamefastness,' a word of an entirely different meaning; and this error, unfortunately, has been continued to our day" (CYCLOPAEDIA, I, p. 563).
     
    #1 Logos1560, Jun 7, 2005
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Duh! M'Clintock is an idiot!
    ______

    shamefastness

    Shamefast \Shame"fast\, a. [AS. scamf[ae]st.] Modest; shamefaced. -- Shame\"fast*ly, adv. -- Shame\"fast*ness, n. [Archaic] See Shamefaced.

    Shamefast she was in maiden shamefastness. --Chaucer.

    [Conscience] is a blushing shamefast spirit. --Shak.

    Modest apparel with shamefastness. --1 Tim. ii. 9 (Rev. Ver.).

    Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
    _____

    shame·faced ( P ) Pronunciation Key (shmfst) adj.
    Indicative of shame; ashamed: a shamefaced explanation.

    Extremely modest or shy; bashful.

    -------------------------------------------------
    [By folk etymology from obsolete shamefast, bashful, ashamed, from Middle English, from Old English sceamfæst : sceamu, shame + fæst, fixed; see fast1.]
    -------------------------------------------------
    shamefaced·ly (-fsd-l) adv.
    shamefaced·ness n.

    Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
    Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
    Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
     
    #2 TCassidy, Jun 7, 2005
  3. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    THE OXFORD ENGLISH DICTIONARY pointed out that "shamefaced" was "originally an etymological misinterpretation of shamefast" (Vol. XV, p. 164).

    The 1828 Webster's Dictionary defined shamefacedness as "bashfulness; excess of modesty."

    Richard Trench wrote: "To change this into 'shamefaced' is to allow all the meaning and force of the word to run to the surface, to leave us ethically a far poorer word" (SYNONYMS, p. 71).
     
    #3 Logos1560, Jun 7, 2005
  4. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I see. So Trench is a pseudo-KJVOist? They say "To change this into 'thoroughly' is to allow all the meaning and force of the word to run to the surface, to leave us ethically a far poorer word." Just another radical nut case.

    Words change over time. Get over it.

    By the way, I checked with a local philologist who specializes in Old and Middle English and he told me "shamefast" was pronounced with a long "a" and it was common to use a "t" in place of an "ed." He said, as far as pronunciation was concerned, the words were identical. Just like shew and show. Pronounced exactly the same, mean exactly the same, just spelled differently, one archaic and the other contemporary.
     
    #4 TCassidy, Jun 7, 2005
  5. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Sometimes you appeal to the OXFORD ENGLISH DICTIONARY as the authority concerning English words, but in this case you seem to ignore the statement in it about "shamefaced."

    THE OXFORD ENGLISH DICTIONARY pointed out that "shamefaced" was "originally an etymological misinterpretation of shamefast" (Vol. XV, p. 164).

    The 1828 Webster's Dictionary defined shamefacedness as "bashfulness; excess of modesty."

    While you are free to disagree with M'Clintock and Trench's statements, what is the purpose in your seeming personal attacks and name-calling concerning them?

    In his 1873 Cambridge edition of the KJV, F. H. A. Scrivener went back to the 1611's "shamefastness" at 1 Tim. 2:9. I think that the 2005 Cambridge edition of the KJV also goes back to "shamefastness."

    David Norton wrote: "The 1611 reading is 'shamefastness,' which is an antonym of 'shameless' in a different way from 'shamefaced'" (TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KJB, p. 137).
     
    #5 Logos1560, Jun 7, 2005
  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    What part of "they are the same word" didn't you understand?
     
    #6 TCassidy, Jun 8, 2005
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    1Ti 2:9 (KJV1611 Edition):
    In like maner also, that women adorne themselues
    in modest apparell, with shamefastnesse and
    sobrietie, not with broided haire, or gold,
    or pearles, or costly aray,

    1Ti 2:9 (Geneva Bible, 1585):
    Likewise also the women, that they aray
    themselues in comely apparell, with shamefastnes
    and modestie, not with broyded heare, or gold,
    or pearles, or costly apparell,

    My dictionary says "Also [Archaic] shamefast
    then gives the exact same pronunciation
    as for 'shameface'

    This then is not a significant difference in
    the pronunciation but only in the spelling.
    Even the Geneva spelled the word different
    from the KJV1611.
     
    #7 Ed Edwards, Jun 8, 2005
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