Spiritual Ability of the Lost

I think you are avoiding the fact that your understanding of the passage proves Jesus (God) choses who will be saved.

You have proven unconditional election.

Thank you for proving an essential aspect of the doctrines of grace.

With some more Bible study, I expect you to become a full 5 pointer.

peace to you

 

Not at issue - obfuscation

Material False Statement - 2 Thessalonians 2:13 proves Conditional Election for Salvation

 

LOL Another “taint so” response. DUH

Your attempt to disprove spiritual inability has proven unconditional election because you are stating the passage means Jesus deliberately concealed information from people that would have led to their salvation.

Therefore, Jesus, who is God, is deciding who gets saved and who does not based on His desires and His will.

Thank you for finally supporting the doctrines of grace.

There really is no reason to continue this conversation. Please continue your diligent study of scripture.

peace to you

 

2 Thessalonians 2:13 proves Conditional Election for Salvation
Yes Jesus concealed information that may have led to their immediate salvation in order to fulfill prophecy, just as the passage says. Duh
God does save His chosen individuals based on His purpose and will, as demonstrated by Him crediting their faith as righteousness.
The doctrines of actual grace are fine, it is the doctrines of deception that belong on the dustbin of history.
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How do the many seek to find the narrow way that leads to life if they at all times hate God and have no ability to seek God or trust in Christ? How are the fields white for harvest if the lost have no ability to understand and accept the gospel?

The answer is some redact the verses and parts of verse that do not mesh with their bogus man-made doctrines.

 

The bible describes lost people seeking God or His rewards or His salvation both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament.

The "Rich Young Ruler" was seeking eternal life, but was unwilling to give up all his worldly possessions. This account is found in Matthew, Mark and Luke.

A woman seeking to touch Christ's garment had faith. This account is found at Matthew 9:20.

Another woman seeking a cure for her daughter had faith in Christ's power, Matthew 15:22.

I could go on and on...

 

Your comment is in error. It is not Jesus that is withholding the information it is the people that are rejecting the information. It is not a lack of spiritual ability it is a matter of free will.

They have chosen not to hear or see the truth right in front of them because their hearts have become calloused/hardened.

Jesus said if they would open their eyes and unstop their ears and believe in Him then He would heal them.

For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.'Matthew 13:15 NIV

So, yes Jesus is choosing who will be saved, those that freely believe in Him.


What does not seem to have occurred to you, @canadyjd, is that if you have Unconditional Election you also have Unconditional Reprobation. Not what I would call a good look for Calvinism.

So this "Unconditional Election" actually gives every person who will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15) an excuse. That being; God simply didn't choose them for heaven.

Those chosen were no better or worse than those reprobated, it's just the luck of the draw under Calvinism.

But the bible tells us man has no excuse for rejecting the revelation of God in creation Romans 1:20 so since the bible is not wrong then Calvinism must be wrong. And logically if their is no "Unconditional Reprobation" there can be no "Unconditional Election". Well that is if you actually believe the bible.

 

@canadyjd it seems it is you that requires a bit more bible study. Those verses do not support your view of "unconditional election"
With more bible study you may just come to realize that your 5 point Calvinism is in error.

 

You stopped at verse 13 but you just have to keep reading to clear up your misunderstanding.
For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.' Mat 13:15 NIV

Those that have calloused hearts, stopped ears or closed eyes can actually open their eyes and see can unstop their ears and hear and can understand with their hearts and turn in faith and Jesus will heal/save them.

It's all right there in scripture if you are just willing to accept it.

 

Without question, the OP has proven God choses who will be saved.

There is no denying the OP stated the reason Jesus spoke in parables was so these folks with the spiritual ability to exercise faith would not be able to understand His message and be saved.

So, in this misguided attempt to disprove total depravity, he has proven God choses who will be saved.

Personally, I believe the OP has misunderstood the passage, as I stated earlier. However, if you accept the first premise, you must also recognize the second.

BTW, I never grow weary of studying scripture

peace to you

 

Of course God chose who will be saved and His stated method of choosing who those are is through faith in His son.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

You may ask why would they receive Him?
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Which we all know is God's chosen method of people coming to trust in Jesus
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,...

But as I stated before, if you hold to the idea of "unconditional election" then you also have to accept the idea of "unconditional reprobation". But the bible does not present either of those ideas so that logically leads to the conclusion that Calvinism is wrong.

I am curious as to where you think that Van has proven "unconditional election"

I have shown you where there is clearly conditional election
Mat 13:15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'
Although they have hardened their hearts that does not mean they can not hear and understand the gospel message or do you think Christ got it wrong?

I told you we would agree on some things. I enjoy the study of scripture also.;)

 

I agree the means by which the chosen are brought into a right relationship with God is the proclamation of the gospel.

peace to you

 

'I am curious as to where you think that Van has proven "unconditional election"

This is the sort of disinformation that is allowed to be posted. I have proved God's individual election for salvation is conditional, based on crediting or not the individuals faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

Why did Jesus speak in parables in Matthew 13, if the lost could not hear and understand the milk of the gospel?

Answer Matthew 13 "10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11 ]Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12 For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Jesus spoke in parables without providing an explanation to prevent them from seeing, hearing and understanding. Thus they had some spiritual ability that had to be countered by using parables.

2) Why did God harden the hearts of the disbelieving Jews in Romans 11, if they were already unable to respond to the gospel.

Answer Romans 11 "
7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
8 just as it is written,
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day.”

9 And David says,
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
10 “Let their eyes be darkened to see not,
And bend their backs forever.”

Scripture says God prevented the unbelieving Jews from seeing, hearing and understanding, which means they had that capacity before God hardened them.

Again, IMHO, it is obvious that Jesus spoke in parables and God hardened hearts to prevent the lost from using their limited autonomous will to respond to the gospel.

Can the lost understand all spiritual things? Nope They can understand and respond affirmatively to spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel, but cannot understand spiritual solid food (meat) because that is discerned only with the aid of our indwelt "helper."

 

The only reason that they are chosen is because they first hear the gospel and believe the gospel message.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,

The great and gloriously powerful means of saving all who accept salvation in God’s own way, namely, the way of faith in Jesus, as the Son of God and Saviour of the world... Benson @ Rom 1:16

 

And so we disagree. Jesus said His sheep hear His voice, He calls them by name, and they follow Him.

1. They are already His sheep before He calls and before they follow

2. He calls them by name which demonstrates a specific call to specific people instead of a general call to all sheep.

3. The sheep follow Him. Every single one of them respond to His call. He loses none.

peace to you

 

Please answer this…

If Jesus had not spoken in parables, did the people who heard Him have enough spiritual ability to believe and be saved?

That seems to be your argument, but think carefully before you answer

1. If you say they didn’t have enough spiritual ability to believe and be saved you will be supporting the doctrines of grace of spiritual inability.

2. If you say they did have enough spiritual ability to believe and be saved you will be supporting doctrines of grace in that God choses who will be saved.

peace to you

 

The point you fail to grasp is that the sheep are His because they have freely trusted in Him. So of course He would know their names and of course they would follow Him.
Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

If the sheep [the saved] did not recognize the voice of their master they would not follow Him would they?

The sheep are already in the sheep fold. They were put there by the shepherd for safe keeping and now He is calling them to follow Him out to green pastures.

A couple of points that I do find a bit confusing about Calvinists.
You call those that do not believe goats and those that believe sheep. But now you are telling me that there are other saved people [sheep] that do not respond to what you say is a general call to the sheep. But if they were sheep [saved] then why would they not follow Christ?

Then again where do you get this idea of two types of calls. Seems to me that you are just reading into the text what you need to find.

 

You are in error because you do not know the scriptures.

Jesus also stated He had other sheep (Gentiles) not of this fold (Jews) and that they too would hear His voice.

So again, they are His sheep before they hear His voice and follow Him.

Concerning the sheep and the goats you are trying to make a point by mixing metaphors.

Jesus is speaking of His sheep in this particular passage that are mingled with other sheep. In other passages He speaks of sheep and goats, wheat and tares and so on.

The point remains, they are His sheep before they hear His voice and follow Him. That is what Jesus is teaching us.

peace to you

 

Why ask if the people could be healed, it is right there in the text.
I always say God chooses who will be saved, thus suggesting otherwise is simply disinformation.

 

Obfuscation!!!! LOL!! Another “taint so” post!

You always say God choses who to save based on their faith credited as righteousness.

So again, You said Jesus spoke in parables because these folks had the spiritual ability to hear, understand and be saved… disproving spiritual inability.

You apparently cannot admit this also means, if you are correct, that God chose not to allow those folks the opportunity to be saved because Jesus spoke in parables.

Will the OP acknowledge that this interpretation means God deliberately chose not to allow people to hear info that could have resulted in their salvation?

peace to you