The Galatians fight back

Quoting Pastor Larry,

"Grace alone is God's part, faith alone is what man does. These are not in contradiction. Historically and theologically, salvation is grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone."

I'm sure we actually agree on free grace, but we sometimes can express our views contentiously, like here, where you say, "Grace alone is God's part, faith alone is what man does. These are not in contradiction."

God's 'part' in salvation is the whole, not just grace. And man's 'part' is zero. He is saved to enjoy salvation, that's all.
Faith alone is NOT what man does - faith is the gift of God by grace ALONE. Not gifted with faith there is no saving faith whatsoever - what to say faith alone is what man does!
Therefore, these are in absolute mutually exclusive and mutually destructive contradiction.

Once agreement could be reached on these first principles of the doctrine of salvation - the Gospel - a conversation may make progress - positive, upbuilding progress. Disagreement will never persuade - we are even convinced by the power of PURE grace alone.

 

Hi Larry;

I rest my case about the many conflicting views of Calvinism. When you say Calvinism doesn't waver what you really mean is your Calvinism. How ever it has become evident by the many different Calvinist there are, Calvinism is in the eye of the beholder. Not to be confused with beauty.
How ever Mr.Ebersoehn doesn't appear to be in agreement with me either and yet in total disagreement with you. I haven't written to him before but I thank him for his help in proving one of my many disagreements with Pastor Larry. Who is always impling that Calvinism is what he believes or says it is. And I'm confused. and don't know what I'm talking about.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

JohnP;
I suspect what Catholism says and does are two different things sort of like there sister Calvinism.
You see in order for freedom of choice there can be no limits and the RCC limits Salvation to members only. However you see this is why you know so much about Catholicism because it's where your faith comes from.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

rc ;

Thats OK rc because I don't care. You see just like I told your brother JohnP in order for freewill to be free it cannot be limited, and Catholicism limits what they call freewill. Salvation to it's members only. You cannot be saved and not be a Catholic is what they claim. So in reality they don't believe Christ saves in the first place, as we do but believes that Christ only saves those who join there church and are baptised by a preist.

May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

The Calvinism I hold is mainstream calvinism. I don't know why it is confusing to you, or what you think is differnet about it.

Like your side, everyone parses the fine points slightly differently. But there is agreement on teh general points.

His comments appear to have misunderstood what I said. I clarified below to put his mind at ease about what I said.

When you talk about calvinism, this is certainly true. It is not unfixable though. You can learn, even if you don't agree.

 

Faith is the gift of God to man. But as the Scriptures plainly indicate, man must believe. He is not exempt from believing. When I say faith is man's part, that is historically the position of Calvinism. They do not believe that faith springs up of its own, but is the gift of God. However, they talk of "duty faith," the fact that man must believe, and in fact, having received the gift of faith, will believe. It is not of himself, but of God. So what you said is not contradictory in the least.

 

IF God had Faith to give you'd be right, but for what possible reason, pray tell, would "self sufficient in every way" God have need of FAITH, the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen? God knows all and does not hope for anything! God sees all and has no need for FAITH! Furthermore, Faith is not a TRANSFERABLE COMMODITY, it does not come in bags, boxes, packages, packets, etc. It is not dispensed "like candy". Faith is uniquely HUMAN! No other species of being requires faith for anything!

Grace is slightly different in that Grace is an attribute of God, and since we are made in the image of God, it is likewise an attribute of man! The most LOST of men possesses grace, even though it may be overpowered in the man by evil, it is still present within the man. Even Gangsters, Mob bosses, etc. behave graciously toward each other which is grace. Now since man has grace similar to that of God, if Grace were truly what saves, All mankind would be saved because all mankind has some grace.

Grace like Faith is not a TRANSFERABLE COMMODITY. Since I have Grace, if Grace were a transferable commodity as in "gifts that one gives to another", I would be able to give you some of my grace. You would then have more than you did, and I would have less than I did. But alas, the only thing that I can give you resulting from my grace is gracious behavior toward you. So my gift of Grace to you would be behavioral on my part! That is how it is with God's grace. He cannot give His grace away either! But he can certainly behave toward his creation with Grace, thus He gifts us with gracious behavior. His gracious behavior towards us gives us an environment in which we can hear his word, believe what we hear and develope within ourselves the faith in Him that HE looks for when it is time for our salvation! No, we are not saved the instant we believe. We are instead sanctified by our faith and being sanctified by faith we are saved through faith when we pass through the natural death that all mankind must pass through!

You say that grace has power? Prove it! I say NO man has been saved by it! Prove me wrong! Demonstrate for me exactly how grace saves so that I, since I have grace can be saved by it!

What is it you want agreement on?
That grace saves, when it cannot!
That faith saves, when it cannot!
That both grace and faith are gifts of God, when they are not!

If you want agreement that Jesus is God the Son, You have it!
If you want agreement that Jesus atoned for SIN, You have it!
If you want agreement that because ALL sin is atoned for, Man does not face death for sin. You have it!
If you want agreement regarding the truth that Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah, and upon "that rock" Jesus builded His church, you have it!
If you want agreement that GOD saves man, but only those who have faith in HIM, You have it!
If you want agreement that Calvin is right and Arminius is wrong, or vise versa,....Who cares? Neither of them can save you!

So what specifically do you want agreement on Gerhard Ebersoehn?

 

Thank you ILUVLIGHT for finding the time to respond to me, you being so busy and all.

Strange way to treat yer sister boy, by burning her on faggots.

Clever but that is not what we are talking about!
1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be 'left in the hand of his own counsel,' so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a3.htm

Do you agree with the statement above? Yes or no?
If no you lose free will.
If yes you are in agreement with the RCC.

I do not agree with that RCC statement. If you do not agree with it you lose free will. If do you do agree you are in agreement with the RCC. So you must be in agreement if I've read you right! :cool: Your Mother Church.

Would you be prepared to give us your testimony please ILUVLIGHT?

johnp.

 

Wes.

Ask God to prove it. :cool:

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved...

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved... :cool:

johnp. :cool:

 

Wes.

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved... :cool:

johnp. :cool:

 

ILUVLIGHT.

Never a truer word spoken I'm sure. A most honourable gesture on your part. I think this should be encouraged.
I'll take back all those things I thought about you, like you were egotistical and incapable of admitting a mistake. You have shown us all the power of God over a man's life and I praise Him. :cool:

johnp.

 

Ask God to prove it. :cool:

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved...

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved... :cool:

johnp. :cool: </font>[/QUOTE]No proof shown there, only a declaration that requires proof!

 

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved... :cool:

johnp. :cool: </font>[/QUOTE]Obviously no agreement possible here.

 

Post edited for the possible insinuation that someone was an unbeliever. Please refrain from that and keep on the issues, not the people.

[ March 18, 2005, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Who said God needed faith? Faith is something God gives to man, according to passages like Phil 1:29.

That is a direct denial of Scripture. God tells us that he gives grace.

The more you talk Wes, the less I am convinced that you are orthodox, or that you have much understanding of Scripture. You seem to have an entirely man made system that ignores the direct teaching of Scripture. You pick a verse or word here or there but fail to put it in context of the entire Bible, or even the more narrow passage it is found in. That is very dangerous. You are close to the point where you would be better off posting in the other religions forum since you are coming so close to a denial of evangelical Christianity. For you, it seems no longer about Calvinism vs. Arminianism, both evangelical points of view, but rather about some strnage concoction that does not fit in this thread. This thread has been reserved for those who hold to a evangelical position on the gospel, and you are coming very close to denying that. Please take careful steps to conform your positions to the Scripture, or go post in the other religions thread.

[ March 18, 2005, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Sorry Larry.

johnp.

 

Hi Larry;

Maybe from your point of view however discerning from what you claim and what Calvin claimed it isn't Calvinism at all but modern Calvinism. Sort of like modernistic Baptist. I don't know if I named them correctly but what I mean is those who only preach what people want to hear. The ear ticklers.

I have acquire what I know about Calvinism and Calvinist from reading archives and from others like you.
I try to get you to discuss it and you will say noting but what you believe with out showing what you believe with scripture. Then you say I should know better.

My side! has been accused over and over again of following men I never knew. My side is accused of being what we are clearly not. Even though my side hasn't claimed to be a follower of any man. I don't believe you know what my side is at all. I've told you and showed you but you have not adsorbed it. You complain that I misrepresent Calvinism, but I do not represent it nor do I wish to. I desire to disprove it and even though you claim I haven't you're wrong. You just refuse to see it because you can't admit that you can be wrong.

I don't believe that for a minute. The man spoke clearly and was very precise in his explanation of what he believes. and he disagree with you as well as me.

Actually if it is true of me Larry it is also true of you, because you are part of the reason and you refuse to do anything about it.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Pastor Larry,
As a pastor, you too give grace! As a person who confronts a wide variety of people every year, I too give grace.

The way grace is given by one to another, is through one's behavior toward the other!. There is never a transference of ownership of Grace between parties!

The way that God give's man grace is through HIS behavior toward man. Grace is defined by most as unmerited favor. God continues to show his favor toward us inspite of our 'in your face' disobedience of His word. He does not administer death upon us when we sin! If he did, Jesus, his only Son would have been the only man standing on the face of the earth, because he is the only sinless one, the only one deserving of Life! Yet look around you, we sin yet continue to live. That is GRACE!

Larry, I disagree with your assessment of me, It seems to me that I am the one who is receiving the meaning of the scriptures that you are so fond of quoting but do not understand the meaning of. You want to apply something magical and mystical to that which is not magical or mystical at all! You want to make things difficult to understand that simply are not difficult! Then you want to imply that I am the one who has no understanding!

Prove me wrong about grace. You have grace, send me a thimble full of YOUR God given grace! If you can and the result is that you have one thimble full less grace, and I have one thimble full more grace, YOU win! If not, then you must truly rethink the concept of God giving to man something that he cannot do! Same goes with Faith and Love! If you can give me a bit of either of those so that you have less and I have more, then YOU WIN! But if you cannot! ....well?

 

It has certanily built developed since Calvin, just as arminianism has. But the substance is the same.

I have used Scripture ad nauseum in here. You won't respond to it though. You just say it doesn't mean that, it means something else. And why should I continue to repeat myself when we can't agree that God meant what he said? The words mean something. You just dno't get to change that to fit your own ideas.

What I have said this about is what we believe. When you wrongly accuse us of believing something, you should know better. You have been told what we believe.

I probably know more about your side than you do.

When you say that Calvinism believes that people are saved without faith, you are misrepresenting it and you know better. You have been told.

Mike, I have been around this barrel a few times. The arguments you are using to try to refute it are simply wrong and have been thorougly exposed. The fact that you find them convincing says more about you than about the arguments. They are not valid arguments. I can see through them, and you should be able to as well.

So far as what he wrote above, I agree with. I think he misunderstood, or he may be a primitive baptist, most of whom don't claim to be Calvinists anyway because they reject what is called duty faith, that it is the duty of every man to believe.

I refuse to do anything? I have patiently taught and discussed things with you to try to help you understand what we believe and why. If you don't learn, I can't do anything about that.

 

Yes, but not entirely. The grace that the Bible says God gives is also in teh context of grace to endure trials and temptations.

It seems to you wrong then. I and others have showed the problems in your positions through the clear exegesis and exposition of Scripture. I am not trying to mystify anything. In fact, I have made it very simple. The Bible says that God chose you to salvation (choosing preceding salvation and the choosing was of people) from the beginning (when there was nothing in you for him to base his choice on) through belief in the truth (his choice was for you to be saved through faith). It doesn't get much more simple than that, but you have denied it.

I don't have to prove you wrong about grace. The word of God takes care of that. And don't suppose that when God gives grace he loses some. He is infinite in grace, and therefore without limits. His grace has no end, and therefore cannot be diminished no matter what he does with it.