I repeat what I wrote before. If Christ has not paid the penalty for my sins, and yours in full, nothing is more certain than that we shall have to pay it myself. Otherwise how is God going to be 'just, and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus' (Romans 3:26)? How is He going to be 'faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness' (1 John 1:9)?
'....Whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness.........to demonstrate at the present time His justice' (Romans 3:25-26).
The Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by JonC, Feb 8, 2022.
Page 3 of 9
-
Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
-
We do experience the wages of sin (death), as we will physically die. All flesh will perish.
BUT per Scripture we are reborn in Christ (in Whom there is no condemnation). He is our assurance - not some theory about God punishing sin in Christ rather than punishing us but Christ Himself.
I understand my view is perhaps too simplistic for many. But it is biblical without the additions of Penal Substitution Theory. -
On what basis does the father forgive our sins than? Who is receiving the due judgement and condemnation if not ourselves?
-
I still do not see any basis for how the father can forgive our sins and justify us if none has atoned for and be judged and condemned for in our place?
-
Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite SupporterSpot on! Thank you!
Penal Substitution is rooted in the character of God as He revealed Himself to Moses in Exodus 34:6-7. “The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding with goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty.” Immediately the question arises, how can God be merciful and gracious, how can He forgive iniquity, transgression and sin without clearing the guilty? How can He clear the guilty if He abounds with truth—if He is a ‘just Judge’ (Psalm 7:11)? How can it be said that, ‘Mercy and truth have met together; righteousness and peace have kissed’ unless God can simultaneously punish sin and forgive sinners? The answer is that ‘God……devises means, so that His banished ones are not expelled from Him’ (2 Samuel 14:14). Those means are Penal Substitution. “Learn ye, my friends, to look upon God as being as severe in His justice as if He were not loving, and yet as loving as if He were not severe. His love does not diminish His justice nor does His justice, in the least degree, make warfare upon His love. The two are sweetly linked together in the atonement of Christ” (C.H. Spurgeon). -
I am still waiting from those who deny Psa as to on what basis can God justify sinners and yet still remain fully Holy and not deny Himself?
-
On the basis of the Cross. There we see God's righteousness manifested not through the law (Penal Substitution Theory) but apart from the law. Man must die to the flesh. Flesh must perish. We must be born again, born of the Spirit.
Forgiveness means that we are not condemned. You do not have to strike somebody in order to forgive me for striking you.
The idea that God is unable to forgive except He exercise punishment is foreign to Scripture. It is a failed secular judicial philosophy the Penal Substitution Theory imposes onto God. -
On the basis of the Cross.
-
Scripture answers this, but the answer is so simple many (even Christians) will see it as foolish because it does not conform to the wisdom of the World (which demands secular justice be dished out). One must die and be born again, made a new creation in Christ (in Whom there is no condemnation).
Scripture really makes sence without adding the secular philosophy of Penal Substitution Theory. But it is far to simple for many to believe. -
God cannot just say you are saved, as One must atone for that sin!
-
Jesus had to die and get born again?
-
Are you not aware that Jesus died for our sins, bore our sin in His body?
-
No. Jesus had to become a life giving Spirit (1 Cor 15:45). We must be born again, born of the Spirit, made a new creation in Christ. Our flesh is not redeemed. It will die and we must die to the flesh.
-
was he not already then, as was always God?
-
1 Corinthians 15:42–47 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. -
Jesus was physically resurrected, correct?
-
Yes. This is basic Christianity. Jesus died and was physically resurrected. We do not know what our bodies will be like, but we will be like Him.
-
Do ypu know of a passage that states Jesus experienced God's wrath?
Do you know of a passage that states God punished Jesus instead of punishing us?
Don't give me a passage and then say "that us what it really means". Show me a passage stating those things. You can't because they don't exist, which is why Penal Substitution Theory is relatively new to Christianity. -
Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter'....Whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness.........to demonstrate at the present time His justice' (Romans 3:25-26).
-
Very good passage. I'm not exactly sure why you choose bits and pieces....or really why you posted it.
Christians, regardless of their view of the Atonement, believe Christ was set forth by God as a propitiation, theough faith, to demonstrate His righteousness because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Of course, this has nothing to do with the reason Penal Substitution Theory is a false doctrine. The reason the Theory is false is it dismisses Scripture as too simple and adds to the Bible.
Nowhere in Scripture is Christ said to have taken on God's wrath. It simply is not there. Nowhere is God said to punish Christ instead of punishing us.
But I know you will post passage after passage, none of them saying Christ experienced divine wrath or that God punished Christ instead of us. And that's fine. I like reading passages on this topic.
And to be fair, I know you really see Penal Substitution Theory in those passage, even though it is not in the actual text. I understand it is very difficult to set aside our traditions, opinions, and presuppositions. But I sincerely believe that if you are able then you will see that Scripture stands on its own.
Sometimes the simplest answer, the plain teachings of Scripture, is exactly enough.
Page 3 of 9