The praying Arminian

"God, I pray that ______'s heart would be open. I pray that you would speak to her. I pray for her salvation."

I don't have a problem with that. Surely it has to be better than praying for something that is going to happen whether a person prays or not. Surely it has to be better than the alternative - that of praying as a Calvinist, "God, well... ah, why bother - you're either going to save the person or pass over that person, so what does it matter what I say?"

 

Doesn' t that encourage God to play favorites towards those who know someone who is a believer?? YOu are asking God to treat someone you know favorably and the only reason he would do so is because they know you. Isn't that unfair to all of those to whom God did not see fit to give them Christian praying friends?

 

I will have to stand with Tozier, I would pray the Lord lift the scales of blindness so the one whtehr fitting the Arminian view or Calvinist view could see the glorious Light of the Gospel of Christ, thereby given ample opportunity to have the "written epistle' by the Spirit on their fleshly heart and not the tables of stone. 2 Corinthians 3, the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life.

 

And it is better for God to play the ultimate favortism card by electing some and passing over others?

There is not only one reason for God to answer the prayer at all as you infer. You are imposing your own belief system here. You also impose your own belief system in your last sentence. We have a responsibility to reach the lost. Period. It is our responsibility to share Christ with others. Shame on us if we fail to do so.

 

My point was only that you have not really removed the supposed problem of favoritism. You have only changed the locus of it.

Actually, I agree with everything you have said. I rather you have imposed my belief system. ... I believe we have every reason to pray and work and witness. My point was more about the principle wondering how you escape what seems an obvious conclusion to me.

 

The problem of favortism is not carried over in the way you suggest just because one happens to be prayed for by a believer.

I know many who pray for the lost in general. And others who pray that all who hear the message will believe.

What purpose would a Calvinist have in praying for a lost soul to be saved?

 

The only prayer that ever needed to be prayed for the eternal salvation of any soul was prayed 2,000 years ago.

"As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." (John 17:2)

 

Oh, brother!

Those "given to him" was a reference to those given to learn from him while he was here in the flesh. As clearly seen later in that same passage 'those given to him" was a direct refence to the twelve.

 

So let me ask everyone, Do you remember being lost, got under conviction, got saved and realized just how many and who it was that were praying for you?

I gave a tesimony a while back on how I realized after I got saved how many must have been praying for me. It had such an impact as I related to Acts 12 where Peter was prayed for, that a preacher friend of mine's sister and her husband both got saved as the result of prayer and testimony. So don't even try that junk we shouldn't pray for others to be saved, Acts 12 is a pretty good example of what power there is in prayer. No, I'm NOT saying Peter got saved as in born again, but he most certainly got saved from being put to death by Herod that night!

 

I as a Primitive Baptist pray that those lost in darkness... Not eternal darkness either might be shown the light in the knowledge and faith of Jesus Christ!... That they might know the extent of their eternal salvation. That they might be brought to the truth... The Biblical Truth!

It says in Matthew... That he was born into this world to save his people from their sins. All that the Father gave him and not lose a one!... Question did the Father give them to the Son to save or did the ones elected give themselves? Since the children were not yet born nor have done any good or evil why would they need to be saved?... Having committed no sin?... Saved from what for what and to what?... Brother Glen

 

Apostle Paul had this prayer:

this prayer cannot be used or be totally useless to those who cling to limited atonement.

 

tyndale1946:

i maybe misunderstanding you, but the way i see you with your prayer, your theology must be like this:

that Christ's death included everyone, but effective only to whom God the Father will give (or elect) to the Son. if this is the case, then it can be argued that Christ paid for the penalty of the sins even of the non-elect. they would still be condemned for their sins though.

i say this because other Calvinists would go on to say that God elected some to salvation and that Christ's death reached only them, which is different from yours, since my quote on you suggests that Christ's death is for everyone, but only effective to the elects. while some calvinists say that Christ death was really for the elects only, which is what is really meant by limited atonement.

 

Most Calvinists would say that Christ's death actually ATONED only for the elect, but since what is necessary to atone for one person is sufficient to atone for the whole world, it also puts every person in a salvable state. Every hearer of the gospel can be saved if he believes--there is no lack of atonement for him.

If you need to think of it like a commercial transaction, then think of it sort of like purchasing a family pass to something. It doesn't matter how big or small the family is, what matters is that you are a member of the family. If a member is added to the family, the pass is valid for them as well.

Christ death made payment for the sins of all who will be "in Him." It doesn't matter how big or small that "in Him" group is, what matters is the "in Him" relationship. And there are no fences around the "in Him" group, anyone who believes is put into Christ.

So we can pray for the salvation of absolutely anyone we are led to pray for (just as we tell the gospel indiscriminately), knowing that if that person believes, there is no impediment standing in the way of his salvation, confident in the truth that God hears our prayers and responds to them, and believing that our prayers are often part of the means God uses to bring someone to salvation.

[ June 17, 2003, 01:25 AM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

in other words, Christ paid for the penalty of the sins of the whole world. only that it becomes effective to those who believe, who, apparently, are the elects. the non-elects will have to pay the penalty of their sins though Christ paid it already.

 

No....while you were responding, I was editing my post, adding more explanation. (Sorry about that!) I added the part likening the purchase to buying a family pass, and the paragraph about being "in Him." Can you read those and see if you still have questions?

 

there are some issues that actually come with it.

1. it means that God's election is influenced by prayer. say for example, alone, God would not have elected a particular person. but since someone prayed for him, that person was then elected.

2. i'm sorry i'm not familiar with the family pass. but i got your thought about it. you said:

Christ death made payment for the sins of all who will be "in Him."

this is a crucial statement. this suggests that Christ paid for the sins of a fixed number of people - those who will be in Him. given the rest of your post, however, it seems that Christ's payment was flexible, or was directed to an indefinite number of people. that is, it was originally only for certain people, but can extend to those who will have faith, though not originally intended to be saved (or elected).

i maybe misuderstanding you, but what you said implies that when someone is prayed and then believes, only then is his sins paid for by Christ. i'm having a hard time saying my point in your language, but i hope you got me.

 

We don't know why God elects a certain person. And while I believe that God has his people chosen before the foundation of the world, for an eternal God, it is certainly possible that he takes my prayer into consideration when electing someone, even though at the actual time of my prayer that person has already been elected.

And it is also possible that because God has already elected someone, He moves me to pray for their salvation, so that He can bring them to salvation in response to my prayer.

Well, the number of people who will finally be "in Him" is fixed. But it's not the number of people that's in view in His atoning work, but the relationship those people have with Him. So the payment (or atonement) is never "used up," just like a group (or family) pass would not be used up, even though there are people it doesn't cover.

If an unelect person had faith, the atonement would cover them. The fact that an unelect person won't come to faith doesn't change this.

There is a sense in which Christ atoned for my sins at the time of the cross. But the saving benefits of that atonement did not come to me until the time of my faith. Up until that time, my sins remained on my account and I remained under the wrath of God.

You do really well, and you have improved a lot over time.

 

nice reply, russell55. you sure know your theology.

your answer is quite new to me. just when i thought i know most of TULIP...

your reply, however, would raise the issue of Christ dying for the whole world, as read in different parts of the New Testament. those scriptures can be understood as Christ dying for all - paying the sins of all people. and that is actual payment, with all sins of all people, as opposed to the concept of "family pass". and yes, explanations are also said as to how the unbelievers are still condemned while their sins are paid for.

but this issue belongs (or belonged) to other threads.