The two witnesses

I would go so far as to say that those who God had added to the church, up until those alive at the coming of Christ will pass through the gates of Hades, into Hades, yet those gates shall not prevail against them. Matt 16:18 and
1 Cor 15:54,55 and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up -- to victory;
where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'

Those above are the Christians that have been put in the church of God, by God, that are being changed from corruptible to incorruptible , is it not?

Is not the death, the gates into Hades? How else would one find himself in Hades?

The gates of Hades shall not prevail against, "her."

 

You two remind me of two squawking guineas...



I have enjoyed reading some of the postings...

But the admition of the church being an intercalation...:eek::eek::eek:

 

I have never said Christ died for a Parenthesis. I have always said Christ died for the sins of the world, all who don't believe on Him are condemned, all who believe are not condemned but have everlasting life. Check my post 126 I stated "God is in Control of everything and He is God in my belief. His plan for man's salvation was that ALL come to repentance, as Peter says. Jesus became the Propitiation for the sins of the world. He paid for all the sins everyone commits, according to Christ in John 3:17 & 18, everyone is condemned already if they haven't believed on Him." No where have ever said Christ died for a parenthesis nor for an age that was Parenthesis, He died for all sins, past present and future. He died for all that believed in Him, Old Testament, those Paul says in Epjesians in the Deispensation of Grace as well those who will trust Him in the Tribulation and those who will be born in the 1000 year reign. He became the propitiation for all mankind and the sins they have committed. The only reason anyone will end up in hell is unbelief, those are Jesus words,

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The issue for the unbeliever is not how many sins or what type of sin he has committed, Christ paid for them. Christ died for every person who has ever lived including, Cain, Hitler and any other person you want to list. The issue is he hasn't believed on Christ as his savior. Everyone is called by the Holy Spirit but not everyone will answer that call. God foreknew everyone who would receive Christ and everyone who would reject, those whom He foreknew He Predestinated them to be conformed to the inmage of His Son. Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Paul also covered the fact that God is not through with Israel in

Romans 11: 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Do you see God still has a plan for Israel and they will be a nation yet again. During the Tribulation they will build their temple, we could even see its beginning, that is the temple in which the abomination which maketh desolate will be set up in.

Through out scripture everyone had to Believe in Jesus, the Old Testament looked forward to a savior who was to come, in our time we look back and believe on the savior who came, Jesus Christ.

The church being Caught up and the Dispensation of Grace which Paul taught, and therefore Paul was the first to teach dispensations, are connected, but the Salvation Jesus brings was for Believers in every AGE. He died for everyone who has every been born, but God gave everyone volition to chose to accept or reject Christ. My view of a pre-trib and Pre-mil snatching away have nothing to do with someone being saved or lost. You believing there will not be a rapture or Christ is already reigning will not change the way aa person receives salvation. Because Salvation is by God's Grace through faith, always has been always will be. It won't change why people got to the Lake Of Fire, those who don;t believe are condemned already, Jesus words not mine.

 

Hasn't the Deliverer already come out of Sion?

 

The squawking of the guineas is certainly more productive. Why I waste the precious time I have left is a mystery to me.

admition? admition? Where have I heard that word before. That doggone spell checker has written admission, addition. Good thing I only ask twice! It ain't any smarter than that feller from W. Va. which got kicked out of Virginia when we us younguns!

 

That is the entire point we have discussed, He came out of Zion as the Messiah to be cutoff and He was cut off, He paid the price for all sin. Paul is saying He will come as prophesied and set foot upon Mt. Zion as conqueror and King and rule and reign for 1000 years upon the earth.

Scripture upon scripture has been posted proving that fact and yet you continue to try and make it fit your belief system. I don't it comes through load and clear. Paul wrote this 20 years after the resurrection and ascension. He says God will redeem Israel, He will come out of Zion, just as the Prophet says and God will restore her in the Kingdom that last 1000 years.

Of course the question you ask would be better ask to Paul who wrote this after the Resurrection and ascension.

 

The Temple shall be rebuilt and will exist during the Tribulation, thus it will fulfill scripture and prophecy written by Daniel.

 

Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

The mystery, the church in this the dispensation of Grace, has been made known to the Saints of this dispensation, hid from the previous ages. Again the Church Age, was not a parenthesis in time, it was always in God's plan. It was just hidden from the Old Testament prophets, because God did not want to reveal it until it was time.

More to show Paul was the first to teach differences in Ages or time periods. Paul in Ephesians said we are in the age of Grace, which was hidden from the prophets and/or Saints of other ages. Really simple. Not sure where you come up with your Parenthesis theory. I have used the illustration that it was as ig God had driven a wedge in time making a valley and as the prophets looked forward they saw from peak to peak but God hid the valley from them. Never a parenthesis in time just a hidden age, hidden form Prophecy until Christ came.

 

Just where does Paul say Jesus Christ will set foot on Mt. Zion and reign for 1000 years?

 

Paul speaks of the dispensation of Grace but Darby and Scofield invented half dozen more.

Can you name a period since the fall when God did not deal with mankind other than through Grace?

 

I thought it was Ezekiel's temple?

Have they written the Environmental Impact Statement yet?

Just how many people in Israel are anything other than atheists or agnostics? How many actually think they are worshiping God?

 

The "temple proper" is a very small building, consisting of the "holy place" and the "most holy place". This could be the extent of the
Tribulation Temple that the False Christ enters and proclaims that he is the "Messiah".
On the other hand, the Temple described in Ezekiel is HUGE. It might be worth looking into this Millennial Temple where Jesus will rule and reign from.

Now, a question: What will "precipitate" the glorious and physical return of the real messiah, Jesus?

 

I thought the Messiah was going to sit on David's chair?

You tell us all.:applause: I am sure we are holding our breath.:thumbsup: Well perhaps not that perhaps we are just waiting with bated breath!:laugh::laugh:


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God has dealt with men in the realm of Salvation with Grace, but Paul is taking it deeper. He says the age of Grace in which He speaks brings with it the mystery, which is the church. In this age the Holy Spirit comes and indwells and fills believers, that never occurred in the Old Testament. He came upon those whom He willed and only in certain circumstances.

With the fall Adam and Eve and their offspring were required to offer sacrifices at a certain time. Proof of their faith and by conscience or their own free Will they had to chose to offer a proper sacrifice. Not for Salvation because they had an inward faith and salvation by Grace. But in obedience. Dispensations don't mean God doesn't deal with man by Grace for salvation it just shows how God dealt with man in each age. With Abraham he was required to follow God, to land he didn't know and God gave Him an unconditional covenant, that He (GOD) would give Abraham and His descendants the Land forever. That is another reason God is not through with Israel. God promised them the Land unconditionally.

 

You need to understand what you preach. The Scholars? of pre-trib-dispensationalism say the Church is a "parenthesis" or an intercalation in God's program for National Israel.

Of course they are teaching a false doctrine but there are a lot of "Rapture Ready" people waiting around who were deceived by Scofield's notes.

By the way you do understand that Scofield in his original reference Bible taught that the Church was in the Old Testament. In the introduction to the Song of Solomon he writes:

How about that? Who would have thought? Of course it is deleted in the newer versions. The "wheels" decided that Scofield was not conforming to "true blue" pre-trib-dispensationalism.

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A major problem with pre-rib-dispensationalism is that Scripture teaches God deals with man through Covenants not dispensations. In fact the word dispensation does not even occur in the Old Testament. They are the invention of man; Covenants are not, they are taught in Scripture. Furthermore the dispensationalist "wheels" are not in agreement on the number and extent of dispensations. Scripture defines when Covenants are made and when new ones begin.

With the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34 was instituted as shown conclusively in Hebrews 8:7-11. Now some pre-trib-dispensationalists try to dent that the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34 is with those redeemed through faith in Jesus Christ but is reserved for the so-called Jewish millennium but they are dead wrong and are disputing the words of Jesus Christ:

Matthew 26:26-29, NASB
26. And while they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”
27. And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you;
28. for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
29. “But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.

Hebrew 8:7-13
7. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11. And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 9:12. Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Hebrews 12:24. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

You might also be interested in what Scripture says of the so-called "parenthesis" Church of pre-trib-dispensationalism.

Acts 20:28. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

They say God purchased a "parenthesis" Church with His own blood. Blasphemy!


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I never said I followed, in fact I continue to say that I have never followed the Scholars as you say teaching on a parenthesis in or an intercalation in God's program for national Israel. In fact when you started talking about it that was the first I had ever seen it called that. No one I have read talks about a parenthesis or intercalation. None of the pastors or professor I had talked about a parenthesis or intercalation. It was always a valley in the line of the prophets view that they couldn't see. God always in His foreknowledge knew this age would exist and planned this age of Grace. I have and still say the church will be snatched away as Harpazo means and is translated as caught up in 1st Thessalonians. That the Tribulation is the last week of Daniel's prophecy planned by God. That Christ will return to earth at the end of the Tribulation and set up His 1000 Kingdom in Israel on the Throne of David. All backed up by scripture which you say I misinterpret. God deals with everyone by Grace for salvation, in this age of the Church God deals with man through the church in this age thus the Church age, this age is unique in that God the Holy Spirit indwells and fills the believer that hasn't happened in any of the previous ages nor will it happen in the tribulation. Christ will be present with the Saints on Earth in the 1000 year Kingdom.

 

Now where in the world did you get the idea that the 70th week of Daniel was the Great tribulation? I would really like to know. You sure can't get it from reading Scripture!

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The following interpretation of Daniel's 70th week may not be correct but it is certainly better than the fiction created by the pre-rib-dispensationalists!

The Seventieth Week

Much of the dispensational theology of the ‘end times’ is based on faulty interpretation of this vision of the prophet Daniel, particularly Daniel 9:26-27. There are some who refer to the period of time discussed in the entire vision as Israel's ‘prophetic destiny’.

Daniel 9:26,27, KJV
26. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

From this passage we see that the Messiah, Jesus Christ was ‘cut off’, killed, sometime after the end of the 69th week; actually after His ministry of about three and one half years when he confirmed {cause to prevail} the New Covenant through His sacrificial death. Because of His sacrificial death the Temple sacrifices were no longer necessary, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom, and I believe the continuation of animal sacrifices in the Temple were an abomination.

There is absolutely no basis in the text of the passage to indicate a delay in the start of the seventieth week until some time in the far distant future, 2000 years and counting. That is a fiction of dispensational doctrine. We know from Scripture that the Messiah, Jesus, was killed, not for himself, but for the sins of those chosen in Him from the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1: 4]. Thus the Covenant has already been instituted by the shed blood of Jesus the Messiah. Sometime after the death of the Messiah the city and sanctuary were to be destroyed by a people belonging to an unnamed prince. The armies of Rome destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD.

The call of Abraham and the eventual setting apart of the nation Israel played an indispensable role in the outworking of God’s purpose of salvation, the Covenant of Grace. The Apostle Paul in his letter to the Saints at Rome writes of the role of the Jews in God’s purpose as follows:

Romans 3:1,2, KJV
1. What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision?
2. Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

It was through the nation Israel that God would fulfill the promise given in the Garden of Eden [Genesis 3:15] and bring the Second Person in the Godhead into the world, not in the glory of the Godhead but as a Virgin born baby. Israel’s God given role, her ‘prophetic destiny’, was completed when Jesus Christ, the Incarnate God, completed His work - His sacrificial death and resurrection for the redemption of the elect, both Jew and Gentile, and the creation and empowerment of the Church in its New Testament form. The ultimate fulfillment of God’s promise to Abraham [Genesis 12:1-4] is explained by the Apostle Paul in his letter to the church at Galatia:

Galatians 3:8, KJV
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Galatians 3:16, KJV
16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Galatians 3:26-29, KJV
26. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29. And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Jesus Christ, sometime after His triumphal entry into Jerusalem, clearly indicated the end of the role of the nation Israel in God’s purpose in the salvation of His elect when He said:

Matthew 21:42-44, KJV
42. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

The dispensational theology of the ‘end times’ declares that prophetic time for the Jews stopped with the 69th week, that is their ‘prophetic destiny’ is interrupted. For 69 weeks prophetic week follows prophetic week, routinely and logically. Then, according to dispensational theology, God grants a delay, an interruption of indefinite length before Israel is to fulfill her ‘prophetic destiny’. The basis for this delay in the fulfillment of Israel’s ‘prophetic destiny’ is her rejection of the Incarnate God, who came as the Suffering servant, Jesus Christ, and His Messianic Kingdom. God is then forced into a fall back position of the ‘parenthesis’ Church.

Those who hold this position should read again very carefully the dialogue of Jesus Christ with two of His disciples on the road to Emmaus [Luke 24:13-32]. Even more significant is the claim that Jesus Christ made in His prayer for the Church before His betrayal, John 17, that He had finished the work that the Father had given Him to do.

John 17:3,4, KJV
3. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ was not a Gospel of an earthly Messianic Kingdom but the spiritual Kingdom of God. There has been only one true Gospel ever preached [Mark 1:1, 14; Luke 4:43; Acts 20:24; Acts 28:31; Romans 1:16], the Gospel preached by Jesus Christ and the Apostles, the Gospel preached to Abraham [Galatians 3:8], the Gospel that the Apostle Paul defends to the church at Galatia [Galatians 1:6-9].

Furthermore, the rejection of Jesus Christ by the Jews is a fulfillment of prophecy [Isaiah 6:9, 10] as explained by Jesus Christ to His disciples [Matthew 13:14, 15] and the Apostle Paul’s denunciation of the Jews at Rome who rejected the Gospel [Acts 28:25-28]. Not all Jews rejected the Gospel of Salvation and these became witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus Christ, the nucleus of the New Testament Church, who, though hated and persecuted by the unbelieving Jews, began the spread of the Gospel throughout the world.

As indicated above the dispensationalists believe that prophetic time has stopped for the Jews before the 70th week and will be resumed after an indefinite ‘Church age’ when the ‘times of the Gentiles have been fulfilled’ and the Church has been removed from the earth.

Daniel 9:27 is perhaps the most difficult and controversial passage in this prophecy. Dispensationalism believes this verse and part of Daniel 9:26 corresponds to the 70th week and will be fulfilled during the seven year ‘great tribulation’ whenever that occurs. I believe the prophecy related to this verse was fulfilled through the ministry and death of Jesus Christ.

Daniel 9:27, KJV
27. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

It seems obvious that the subject of this passage refers back to the subject of verse 26, the Messiah. Note first that this passage does not say that He shall make a covenant but that He shall confirm a covenant. The word confirm translates the Hebrew word ‘gabar’ and is used 25 times in the Old Testament. It is translated prevail 14 times and confirm once. The passage could read “He shall cause a covenant to prevail”.

Continued: