1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Why Dispys and CT's can't understand each other

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Pete Richert, Mar 17, 2003.

Top Posters
  1. Pete Richert

    Pete Richert New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2001
    Messages:
    1,283
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am about 3/4 of the way through a book written by the coventant theologian Vern Sheridan Poythress called "Understanding Dispensationalists". The boook is short (about 120 pages, $8) and doesn't defend CT agaist Dispensationlism but instead tries to reason out why people from these two sides have such a hard time understanding each other. Namely, he shows where and how are presupossitions are so different that we can be pointing to the same texts and read different things. He discusses things like the use of "literal" and "plain" interpretation by the Dispys and how this term can be loaded.

    Anyway, finding myself somewhere torn in between, I found this book very helpful in understanding some of the discrepencies between the two views and how they come about. I think everyone should read it, both the Dispys and CTs, so that we can all understand each other better. Vern's main goal is to open up a more productive dialog between the two sides so as to hopefully one day come to agreement.

    P.S. I know this should probably be in the book section but since this is the forum that this is usually discussed, I wanted to get as wide an audience as possible.
     
    #1 Pete Richert, Mar 17, 2003
  2. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    A PhD I know who did his dissertation on the connections between the millennial views said this book by Poythress would be better title "Misunderstanding Dispensationalism." I have read only a very little bit of it. I was rather unimpressed though Poythress is certainly better than many authors who try to tackle the subject.
     
    #2 Pastor Larry, Mar 17, 2003
  3. Pete Richert

    Pete Richert New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2001
    Messages:
    1,283
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, I'm both glad and disapointed to hear that from you. I am glad because I want a solid Dispensational to set me straight if I am being led to misunderstand them. I am disapointed because I thought this book was doing well to bring the two sides into dialogue.

    Can I ask you (a solid and Godly Dispensational) a question (that is answered in this book) but I want to hear your opinion. How do you reconcile Peter's statement in Act's chapter 2 that this is the times being prophesized (sp) about in the book of Joel. I have read Ryrie's Study Bible on the subject, and it seems to match close to what Polythress says Ryrie and Scofield might say but I want to hear your opinion. It has been a real hold up for me in dispensational thinking.

    thanks
     
    #3 Pete Richert, Mar 18, 2003
  4. Pete Richert

    Pete Richert New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2001
    Messages:
    1,283
    Likes Received:
    0
    While we are on the subject, actually, could you just give a point or two on where you think Poythress misunderstands dispensationalists. That would be most helpful.

    Thanks
     
    #4 Pete Richert, Mar 18, 2003
  5. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    In Acts 2, I would argue (as would a number of others) that "This is that" refers to similarity, not identity. Acts 2 cannot be Joel because there are differences. So I would understand Peter using that as an OT point of reference for the type of thing that was happening at Pentecost. The context of Joel leaves too many open holes for that to be its full fulfillment.

    As for examples from Poythress, I will look through some notes that I have (hopefully today). It has been a while since I read it (probably 3 or 4 years) and so my mind has forgotten some of those things. I will try to answer this for you.
     
    #5 Pastor Larry, Mar 18, 2003
  6. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am reading through a journal from Grace Theological Seminary right now on his book. Two dispies (Saucy and one that I cannot remember) each wrote responses to his work.

    He does not accurately present.

    As far as Acts 2 goes, I have a different take than Pastor Larry.

    Peter is saying that Joel's prophecy does in fact fulfill what was happening on Pentecost.

    The prophecy is that:
    1. The Holy Spirit would come in power in a certain way
    2. Signs from heaven would appear.

    Peter's point is that during this time, from beginning to end, the Holy Spirit is at work in a unique way. At the beginning of this age, He used sign gifts. At the end of the age, you will see signs in the heavens.

    So, the prophecy is two part and not all fulfilled at once.

    I hope this makes sense.
     
    #6 Daniel David, Mar 18, 2003
  7. Pastor Chet

    Pastor Chet New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2003
    Messages:
    89
    Likes Received:
    0
    One of the best books comparing Covenant versus Dispensational theology is "There Really is a Difference" by Renald Showers.In studying the two ,beware of New Covenant Theology which is becoming extremely popular. It is not exegetically defensible. NCT tries to steer middle ground between Disp. and Cov. Theology. For a good book critique of NTC I recommend "In Defense of the Decalogue by Richard Barcellos. Both I think are available through Amazon
    chet
     
    #7 Pastor Chet, Mar 18, 2003
  8. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think alot of dispensationalists are New Covenant Theologians who are pretrib/premill in their eschatology.

    Personally, I don't see the problem. Could you explain?
     
    #8 Daniel David, Mar 18, 2003
  9. Pete Richert

    Pete Richert New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2001
    Messages:
    1,283
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks Pastor Larry, I hope you find those notes.

    Preach, since your reading the article right now, could you jot down a couple of notes where Saucy shows how Poythress dosn't accuretly represent dispensationalism. Or better yet, is this article online, I would love to read it.

    thanks.
     
    #9 Pete Richert, Mar 18, 2003
  10. Pastor Chet

    Pastor Chet New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2003
    Messages:
    89
    Likes Received:
    0
    Read In Defense of the Decalogue and you will see the problem .Barcellos ,the author, does an excellent job.
     
    #10 Pastor Chet, Mar 18, 2003
  11. Pete Richert

    Pete Richert New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2001
    Messages:
    1,283
    Likes Received:
    0
    Pastor Chet,

    Can you give us just a quick summary. My "to read" list has grown to about six books at the moment.

    Thanks,
    Pete
     
    #11 Pete Richert, Mar 18, 2003
  12. russell55

    russell55 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    I was wondering if I was the only one who thought this.....I can't see much else for a difference.
     
    #12 russell55, Mar 18, 2003
  13. Pete Richert

    Pete Richert New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2001
    Messages:
    1,283
    Likes Received:
    0
    Do NCT have a strict seperation of Isreal and the Church like Dispensationalism.
     
    #13 Pete Richert, Mar 18, 2003
  14. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    Pete, not as far as I can tell. The purpose of N.C.T. is soteriological (salvation). In my estimation, N.C.T. removes alot of the major problems with Covenant theology.

    Once you delve into subjects like Israel/church, millenium, church government, baptist, etc., you would probably find a lot of major differences between them. I just don't think they address it.

    Pastor Chet, I for one disagree that the 10 commandments has authority over the Christian. It was part of the law. The law has been done away with.

    If I wasn't dispensational, I would be a N.C.T. who is pretrib/premill.
     
    #14 Daniel David, Mar 18, 2003
  15. russell55

    russell55 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    There is continuity between the church and Israel and discontinuity, too.
     
    #15 russell55, Mar 18, 2003
  16. Tim

    Tim New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2001
    Messages:
    967
    Likes Received:
    0
    I believe New Covenant Theology is a better understanding of the covenants than either covenant theology or dispensationalism (though it's much closer to dispensationalism in this area). I honestly don't see anything to "beware" of.

    If the concern is that NCT teaches the New Covenant is better than the Ten Commandments were--I think we're on pretty solid biblical ground (see 2 Cor. 3:6-11, Heb. 8:6-13, Heb. 10:9 for starters).

    A believer in the better covenant,

    Tim
     
    #16 Tim, Mar 18, 2003
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Loading...