When you say we Cals are liberals, you mean likes of Spurgeon, Sproul, Calvin were such in regards to theology and the Bible?
Words have Meaning
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Oct 23, 2021.
Page 5 of 8
-
-
-
The Greek preposition "dia" has the literal positional meaning of passing through something, and the instrumentality meaning of by means of, because of or by reason of. In the Greek construction of "through faith" the word "faith" is in the genitive case and according to the LEXICON I quoted, "dia" thus conveys the meaning of "by means of" or "because of."
To spell it out for the deniers of the obvious, we are saved by grace through faith, with the meaning that we are saved because God credited our faith as righteousness. Now running from this obvious truth,we getl off topic false charges non-stop. .
And note folks all the posts are hurling false claims, rather than addressing the topic of the thread. Such posts are folks waving the white flag of surrender, as they know "through faith" means "because of our faith as credited by God." Conditional Election anyone. -
-
Just because someone makes an insignificant error, such as a typo, does not indicate what is being said is invalid. Pouring significance into nit picks marks such observations as irrelevant. -
RipponRedeaux Well-Known Member
-
-
The Archangel Well-Known Member
The Archangel -
Next the claim that 1 Thessalonians 3:7 is not a prepositional phrase with "pistis" as the object. Hogwash I identified the phrase as an inclusion.
Here is the quote where this poster attempted to make a mountain out of a typo.
To spell it out for the deniers of the obvious, we are saved by grace through faith, with the meaning that we are saved because God credited our faith as righteousness. Now running from this obvious truth,we getl off topic false charges non-stop. . -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
Repeating the same thing over and over again is not going to make it magically true. I understand you sincerely hold this belief, but you are sincerely wrong in that belief. What is more, your constant repetition of the same error shows an almost-absolute inability to engage with anyone else, especially someone who knows what they're talking about.
The Archangel -
The Greek preposition "dia" has the literal positional meaning of passing through something, and the instrumentality meaning of by means of, because of or by reason of. In the Greek construction of "through faith" the word "faith" is in the genitive case and according to the LEXICON I quoted, "dia" thus conveys the meaning of "by means of" or "because of."
To spell it out for the deniers of the obvious, we are saved by grace through faith, with the meaning that we are saved because God credited our faith as righteousness. Now running from this obvious truth,we get off topic false charges non-stop. .
How many times in the NT does the prepositional phrase "dia pistis" appear? About 64 or about 19? Go figure -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
Passing Between’ or ‘Through.’ The idea of interval between leads naturally to that of passing between two objects or parts of objects. ‘Through’ is thus not the original meaning of διά, but is a very common one. The case is usually the genitive...Any student of Greek would know that the preposition occurs with its object and governs the meaning of its object, and the object (the noun) influences whether the preposition means something in terms of agency or instrumentality (to name a few). Robertson states:
A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research (Logos Bible Software, 2006), 581.
The scientific method of studying the Greek preposition is to begin with the case-idea, add the meaning of the preposition itself, then consider the context. The result of this combination will be what one translates into English, for instance, but he translates the total idea, not the mere preposition. It is puerile to explain the Greek prepositions merely by the English or German rendering of the whole. (Ibid., 568)So, your idea of holding on to a set, one-way interpretation of δια is quite wrong.
The Archangel -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
While we're on the topic of prepositions and meaning.... Daniel Wallace has a really good statement on the so-called "Root Fallacy" and he applies it to the use of prepositions.
As lexicographers have long noted, the root meaning of a word is not necessarily an accurate guide to the meaning of the word in later literature. The same is true of morpho-syntactic categories: One ought not look for some kind of invariant meaning that is always present with the preposition. The meaning of words changes in time. Further a word has a field of meaning rather than a point. Such is no less true for prepositions than for other words. (Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, 363, emphasis original).Clearly, finding and insisting on a dictionary definition of δια, or any preposition, is not how any real kind of study is done. Many factors go into determining meaning--the author's usage, the context, etc.
Since the current discussion relates to δια, here is the range (or "field") of meaning that Wallace gives for δια:
Basic uses (with genitive and accusative)In determining the meaning of the preposition as it relates to the phrase, the verb must also be considered... But that would be a bridge too far for this discussion, I fear. ;)
1. With genitive
a. Agency: by, through2. With accusative
b. Means: through
c. Spatial: through
d. Temporal: through(out), during
a. Cause: because of, on account of, for the sake of
b. Spatial (rare): through
(Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, 368-9)
The Archangel
-
I want to thank archangel, Martin, JofJ, and the rest of you who regularly review my posts for accuracy and holding me accountable. In my flesh, I may desire to “push back,” but must always recognize I am growing less intellectually every day.
This is why whenever I do any original language work on the BB, I call for others who are now far closer to the languages to verify and correct any error I make.
Does it not make for sound work to have that work verified by others?
I would hate to stand before my Lord and answer why I so inappropriately rendered His dictation to the writers. -
Does "dia" refer to passing through something? Yes (So false charge 1)
Do the quotes from A. T. Robertson support my view? Yes (So false charge 2) -
Romans 3:22
namely, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction,
In this prepositional phrase, because of or by means of the faithfulness of Jesus Christ could have been chosen to better present the intended message. But what unites receiving the benefit of Christ's sacrifice? All who believe as determined by God -
The means by which something is accomplished, such as our Individual Conditional Election for Salvation is accomplished through or because of or by means of God crediting our faith as righteousness. Thus when you see "through faith" the idea is it is the means by which God chooses the individual to receive the contextual benefit.
Galatians 3:14 (NET)
in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we could receive the promise of the Spirit by faith.
Here we see our phrase (dia pistis) presenting the action of God sealing Gentiles with the Holy Spirit through or because of or by means of God having credited their faith as righteousness. The faith path by which something is accomplish includes (1) hearing the gospel, (2) heeding the gospel, (3) placing our full trust and devotion upon Christ, (4) God crediting our faith as righteousness, and (5) God taking the contextual action.
Galatians 3:26
For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith.
Here God's action is God causes those individuals to be born anew as children of God. And this action was accomplished through or because of or by means of the individuals faith as credited by God. Once again we see the idea that "through faith" refers to the path by which something is accomplished. Faith is the path through which the action is accomplish, but God is the source providing the action.
And folks, this is the Biblical Truth which is being attacked. Pay no attention to false charges and false claims.
-
The Archangel Well-Known Member
The Archangel -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
You really should not try to dig past the bottom of the hole you've already dug.
The Archangel -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
διὰ τῆς πίστεως. I'll bet you can't really tell me what τῆς is or why Paul includes it here.
By the way... You should understand that disagreeing with your "grammatical thoughts" isn't attacking biblical truth. You have sought to move the goalposts of the argument. You started off by saying διὰ plus the genitive of πιστις was formulaic and meant what you wanted it to mean. That is clearly false. Now, you're claiming that any disagreement with your non-existent Greek skills is an attack on you. This is absurd. There are places where διὰ πίστεως can have an idea of "means" attached to it, but it isn't every case. Much more than dictionary definitions go into such things.
In no way do I, as a reformed theologian, think that man doesn't have to exercise faith to be saved. I am not a hyper-calvinist. But, in no way do I think saving faith is inherent in any human being apart from the work of the Holy Spirit and God's sovereign choice.
The Archangel
Page 5 of 8