J.I. (Calvinist) Packer's "Knowing God"

Here's the explanation of regeneration as presented by a Calvinist that I have been seeking on my other thread. Pay attention. Even Packer can't get around it.

"It is not for us to imagine that we can prove the truth of Christianity by our own arguments: nobody can prove the truth of Christianity except the Holy Spirit, by His own almighty work of renewing the blinded heart. It is the sovereign prerogative of Christ's Spirit to CONVINCE men's consciences of the truth of the gospel and Christ's human witnesses must learn to ground their hopes of success not on clever presentation of the truth by man, but on powerful demonstration of the truth by the Spirit." p. 71 pp. 2

There it is --- what I believe as well. Blinded heart renewed by CONVINCING man's conscience of the truth through the presentation/preaching of the gospel! None of this "flim flam" stuff about "elect." None of this idea of regeneration before one can even "hear." Instead, hearing and convincing is a prerequisite for regeneration and faith.

Again: "It is surely clear that, once a person is CONVINCED that his state and need are as described [sinner in need of a Savior], the New Testament gospel of grace cannot but sweep him off his feet with wonder and joy. ... Grace and salvation belong together as cause and effect." p. 132 pp. 2-3

YES! The offer of grace leads to the reception of salvation through the CONVINCING of the Spirit. There IS a part for the "blinded heart" to play. It is NOT just a passive role we play but a pensive one -- and a decisive one!

Are you getting this, brothers?

skypair

 

That'd be great!!

So regeneration is NOT monergistic. We actually have to know and believe something BEFORE we receive regeneration and faith! Wonderful!

And we don't have to be regenerated to "hear." Everyone "hears" the gospel! Everyone can consider the "salvation offer" for him/herself and receive it. Man! You don't know how long I have been hoping to come to this intersection of our "knowledge and faith of Christ!"

TCGreek almost acknowledged this -- then took it back when his Calvinist dogma overcame his scriptural scruples.

skypair

 

You got that right!! I am not seeing how unbelievers ("blind") see without knowing it.

The "renewing work" (you call "monergism") is explained in the next sentence. It is by "CONVINCING men's consciences." Do you see that sentence?

NO. CONVINCING is NOT monergism nor is it regeneration until there is a change in the heart. That change is effectuated by the person who is CONVINCED -- who hears, believes and receives. Convincing involves "reasoning together" --- as in "Come let us reason together. Though your sins be as scarlet..." And so the "gospel" is NOT always an "effectual call," is it.

Again, you are supporting a dogma you do not even understand. You don't understand it because you can't "connect the dots" between unbelief and regeneration with any rational explanation of what happens to change the heart.

skypair

 

Pulease, Larry. Don't "spoil the moment." :laugh:

How can you accuse me of not understanding Packer and give NO reasons or explanation why. How can you say you don't hink any Calvinists would disagree in one post and come back and deny your own words the next?? Were you lying to me? Were you, like TCGreek, unaware that Calvinism doesn't make any sense? Explain yourself, pls.

skypair

 

I apologize. I didn't give you credit for your scriptural wisdom.

For instance, do you even know what 1Pet 1:3 means??? We are born again to the hope/belief that we will be resurrected because that resurrection is promised and, thus, is NOT something we have seen and can have faith in. See -- things that we believe (like the gospel) AND have evidence of (like regeneration by the Holy Spirit indwelling) -- those things we can have FAITH in. So BELIEF had to come before regeneration if that paradigm (the one Packer is talking about) is true -- belief - regeneration - faith.

skypair

 

See, J.D., what Packer says makes perfect scriptural sense -- until it is compared with Calvinist dogma!! Both you and Pastor Larry thought Packer made perfect sense. It wasn't until you realized that he espoused that man has a part in the regeneration -- he had to be CONVINCED first -- that you both "fled the flock" and grabbed for dogma neither of you have figured out.

Please reconsider. "Let us reason together." Does it make sense to you that there is ABSOLUTELY NO reason for your being regenerated?? No cause and never a sicernable moment when, in your mind, it happened?

skypair

 

Thank you, TC. I was expecting some backpedalling in the book but I never found it. No doubt that is why it got so many endorsements (21 under the front cover alone!) -- because he DIDN'T retract any of his words even in the 1993 reprinting (20 years later) of his original work.

I still see no retraction. How do you think a "new principle" is "implanted" in the heart? You wouldn't explain it to me before. Do you have an explanation now??

EXACTLY, TC!! But you know what? Ezek 36:25-27 speaks of the resurrection -- the REBIRTH -- of Israel into the MK. They will be resurrected, reborn out of the ground, and given this "new heart!" Same with Ezek 37:12-14! You're looking at the PERFECT parallel to what happens to JUSTIFIED, repentant, receiving believers as soon as they receive Christ! They are "regenerated" and receive the "sight" of faith!! Are you with me??

Fantastic observation, TC!!

No -- even OT faith required repentance and faith in God. And there was no "new birth" for OT saints -- not then and not while Christ hadn't made the requisite Sacrifice for sin. That is a lesson for you -- there was NO regeneration in the OT. Their "regeneration" comes into the MK, a resurrection by the Spirit to "new life in Messiah!" Do you see that? This is good stuff, TC. I hope you are taking notes.

Look, it's either one or the other, TC. either no conversion without new birth or no new birth without conversion. Otherwise yours is a "chicken and egg" conundrum.

John the Baptist was NOT born again, TC. He couldn't be because, again, the Sacrifice hadn't been made. When he died, he went to sheol, not to heaven, until that sacrifice was made at the cross. What you are reading about John the B is that he was "filled with the Spirit" -- a temporary circumstance for OT saints (and NT ones) in which all of one's thoughts, emotions, and will (such as they are) are focused on God. John's were purely reflexive.

O I couldn't agree more! That IS the work of the Holy Spirit. He CONVINCES the blind, the unbeliever.

As described by Calvinists, "regeneration" is ALWAYS the RESULT of effectual calling.

That is Calvinist dogma -- not the reasoning of scripture. Packer says regeneration is the result of the Spirit's CONVINCING of the blind. CONVINCING requires participation by the one being "drawn" -- being called.

OK, if it doesn't occur like Packer says (and like I agree), how does that work in your opinion?

Transition??? I would suggest that you are talking now about SANCTIFICATION which occurs over one's total life on earth. And no, that would not be a "rebirth" as Jesus spoke of. Even for the OT saints whose resurrection will have a specific date, rebirth is instantaneous.

I agree. BELIEF, being CONVINCED, is the cause of regeneration. Being CONVINCED is a personal decision, TC. It is evidenced by repentance and trusting in Christ. You are merely trying to stick as closely as you can to what you have been taught and not even "reasoning" with God's word.

Oh, I'm a liar now? C'mon, TC. Go read it before you salaciously accuse me! I gave you page and paragraph.

skypair